Needed: Advice on farming out my CAD/CAM - Page 2
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    Quote Originally Posted by implmex View Post
    Hi All;
    I am having a hard time with the concept of buying the Ferrarri and not putting wheels and tires on it just because you can't afford both.
    Isn't the software to run your toolpaths an essential part of the purchase like cutters, collets and a vise?
    Yeah. But with software, you can't figure out if it really works until you've spent several weeks and a bunch of dough on it.

    I'd recommend trying various pirate software until I found one I liked. Then go that way. You can't tell anything from a demo.

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    While it will depend a bit on the kind of work you do I wouldn't recommend farming that kind of work out. If it is going to get set up for production runs or repeating jobs that makes more sense. If I didn't have the ability to make changes to any of my programs it would drive me nuts. I'm not good at just looking at code and making changes, I always run it through my Cam. I'd be really unproductive if i couldn't do that when I wanted.

    We just got a 5th on one of our machines and I had to get by with one day of training just to get a few jobs out of the way. It was surprisingly simple to merge 3x programs into an efficient 3+2 program. I am working with SolidCam now to get a good 5x post, but until that's all dialed I'm confident in my ability to piece them together old fashioned.

    Will you be doing simultaneous 4/5 axis? If so I would still think the best play is going to be getting your own seat and learn it well.

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    Forgive my ignorance as I'm not a shop owner, but if the price of the machine, tooling and cad/cam software is too much, wouldn't it be best to wait until you can afford it all?
    Farming it out just doesn't seem to be the best way to go IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Yeah. But with software, you can't figure out if it really works until you've spent several weeks and a bunch of dough on it.

    I'd recommend trying various pirate software until I found one I liked. Then go that way. You can't tell anything from a demo.
    Using pirated software is not a very wise choice especially if you are a business owner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowshooze View Post
    Dstryr;

    It has a Mazak Matrix Nexus 2 control. Not in hand as yet.
    It will have a certain amount of on-board programming, and I only wonder if that will be anything beyond 3 axis. To program at the control... is probably the worst place I could do it anyway.
    I have decided I just ain't gonna spring with the software dough right now... I am a Machinist...
    But as things evolve, and I pay out the hardware... then I can add it.
    But yes, for sure. Any you guys can help, you have always helped. And a lot.
    Thanks!
    Mark
    Mazatrol can do 3+2 work pretty easily. The hard part will be finding training for it in your area.

    G-code will be very similar to any other Fanuc/Mitsubishi style 5 axis, just with a some Mazak specific codes. But the bulk of it is the same.

    My last shop used to outsource some parts to outside contracting programmers. It always sounds better in theory, in practice you're still making lots of little tweaks or sending stuff back and forth to get it right. It maybe saved 50% of the work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by implmex View Post
    Hi All;
    I am having a hard time with the concept of buying the Ferrarri and not putting wheels and tires on it just because you can't afford both.
    Isn't the software to run your toolpaths an essential part of the purchase like cutters, collets and a vise?

    I can certainly sympathize with not wanting to spend on unnecessary stuff and not wanting to make an expensive software mistake, but the very last thing I'd want, is to have the toy and be dependent on an outsource solution to run it.
    That would drive me nuts!

    Whether you choose a purchase or a rented cloudware solution is up to you, and decent arguments can be made for either, but if I really felt there wasn't enough meat in the gig to justify all the essentials, I'd drop the whole idea and spend my pennies elsewhere, or put them in my pocket until a better time.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    www.vancouverwireedm.com
    Well, I appreciate the straight-forward common sense, but, as usual, there are a dozen considerations going into this.
    I'm still building my house... one board at a time.
    So, I will have my Mansion.
    What is gonna be hard is getting that hill under it.

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    buy a machine that uses ISO standard g code and post wont be an issue... and for multiaxis, non-conforming machines, then a post should be included in the purchase or there is no purchase. that simple. They have to program it with something when they build it. no reason they cant give you that.

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    Hi snowshooze:
    Point taken.
    And yes, I've done it too.
    Some times ya just gotta...business logic be damned!

    So figure out what you can do with the software you have.
    Yoke makes a good point; you can still capitalize on a lot of the 5 axis advantages without splashing out for something like Hypermill.
    Our 5 axis machine does mostly 3+2 work and HSMWorks is just grand for that.
    In fact, in the year and a half it's been on our floor we've NEVER been asked to cut an impeller or any of the other weird full simultaneous 5 axis stuff you see at the machine tool shows or on Youtube.
    I think Keith ran a swarf toolpath maybe 3 times; mostly just to see if HSMWorks could do it and how it would turn out compared to a conventional tapered contour toolpath.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    www.vancouverwireedm.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowshooze View Post
    And of course... there are always revisions... time..
    Nobody is farming out CAD, we still print drawings here, nothing less though loll As for outsourcing CAM, you will loose the ability to optimize your machining/cycle time and techniques (so to stay competitive). Unless you've omitted that in your business strategy, which I doubt. You possibly just forgot!

    Also, what do you mean by fancy stuff? If you are looking at doing adv technology mfg, or molds, etc then investment shouldn't be an issue for you. That first contract should allow you to pay for 'any' CAM package, twice or more perhaps

    ...so look for that contract first, and then decide on the CAM package that you (your customer, in fact) needs

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    Mark,

    BobCAD-CAM can do 3+2,4+1, and full simultaneous 5 axis. It may be possible to just upgrade your current seat to add the capabilities you need.

    Sean Daugherty
    BobCAD-CAM Technician
    Last edited by SeanDa; 03-20-2017 at 01:56 PM. Reason: Add name and title

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanDa View Post
    Mark,

    BobCAD-CAM can do 3+2,4+1, and full simultaneous 5 axis. It may be possible to just upgrade your current seat to add the capabilities you need.

    Sean Daugherty
    BobCAD-CAM Technician
    Hi Sean!
    Caught me sneaking around in here I see.
    Yes, and I discussed some of this with you guys.
    What got me though is that when going to 5 axis, your rep told me we were going outside of Bobcad to a German outfit...and the words I was hearing was that basically... I'd be starting out scratch so far as my Bobcad investment was concerned.
    Now what did we blow over there...5-6 grand?
    I can't remember.
    Bobcad has done well by me, but I figure if I am going to have to start from zero, I may as well hit industry standard.
    We had V25, Mill and lathe, upgraded to V28 for same... 2 months later V29 comes out...
    No, I wasn't ready to shell for it though.
    Anyway, leads back to why I started the thread.
    What is the point, really... of throwing the money all over, and can I successfully go outside for those odd jobs that do require 4+1 complexity, blends, curves and all that and win?
    I am already burnt out on talking to software salesmen.
    So.. I figured it was time to bounce it off the boys.
    Thanks Sean!
    Mark

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    Mark,

    You are correct, we do use a company for our MultiAxis toolpaths, which is ModuleWorks. This is also the company the develops the 3x Pro toolpaths. They are used widely in the industry, and if you go to their website, you will see the list of company's that contract with them, one being MasterCAM. I can understand not wanting to upgrade, when you may not require using those capabilities but every once in awhile. If there is anything that I can do to assist you, as far as from the siftware perspective, please feel free to send me a PM.

    Sean Daugherty
    BobCAD-CAM Technician

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanDa View Post
    Mark,

    You are correct, we do use a company for our MultiAxis toolpaths, which is ModuleWorks. This is also the company the develops the 3x Pro toolpaths. They are used widely in the industry, and if you go to their website, you will see the list of company's that contract with them, one being MasterCAM. I can understand not wanting to upgrade, when you may not require using those capabilities but every once in awhile. If there is anything that I can do to assist you, as far as from the siftware perspective, please feel free to send me a PM.

    Sean Daugherty
    BobCAD-CAM Technician
    So:
    My sincerest apologies for my previous remarks.
    But I can't keep throwing money at software. It isn't there.
    Bobcad is great, and I am still getting used to it, but now I am trying to get into a machine that is beyond the capability of my issue of Bobcad.
    I have pretty much decided I need to focus on getting the equipment at this point.
    So, I am going to do everything I possibly can with Bobcad, and I will just have to do a work-around on the goofy parts that require more advanced softwares.
    That is pretty much all there is to it.
    If I go waltzing out and buy software, well...it doesn't appear to me there will be a machine here to use it on.
    Mark
    Last edited by snowshooze; 03-21-2017 at 12:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawnrs View Post
    Using pirated software is not a very wise choice especially if you are a business owner.
    Yeah, odderwise Guido and da boys may have ta stop by and see how youse knees is holdin' up ... got a nice liddul biznuss heah, ya wouldn't want nuttin' ta happen to it, eh ?

    Seriously, I didn't mean to run the company on it for five years. Stick it on a laptop that's not connected to the internet and try a few out. I can never tell doodly from the sales literature. According to the brochures they are all God's Gift to Mankind, but some people like one program, other people like another. Personal taste.

    But I agree, back there in the Home of the Brave and Land of the Free you really do have to worry about who is looking over your shoulder ... not a good idea for everyone, for sure.

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    Mark,

    I apologize if I said something to upset you. As far as being up the job, as I stated we can do 3+2,4+1,and simultaneous 5 axis, in which we use industry standard toolpath. As far as coming clean, could you please elaborate as to what you would like to know or for me to say. I would be more than happy to assist you with anything within my power.

    Sean Daugherty
    BobCAD-CAM Technician

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanDa View Post
    Mark,

    I apologize if I said something to upset you. As far as being up the job, as I stated we can do 3+2,4+1,and simultaneous 5 axis, in which we use industry standard toolpath. As far as coming clean, could you please elaborate as to what you would like to know or for me to say. I would be more than happy to assist you with anything within my power.

    Sean Daugherty
    BobCAD-CAM Technician
    Sean;
    Sorry, my sincerest apologies.
    You guys are great.
    But I am a bit confused.
    Bobcad goes out for software?
    Me too.

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    Contrary to consensus so far - it is common practice in some environments to create machine tool programs without being anywhere near the machine - sometimes not even the same country.

    Unfortunately, the costs of doing this successfully will outweigh what you are willing to invest. The programmer needs to have your post. The programmer needs to have the exact machine settings - every parameter - in the controller, and you need to not change them - or keep revision control if you do. Second, you both need -good- simulation software that knows all of these things, can simulate straight from the G-Code, and your machine settings, and verify the end product. The programmer would also need to have your tooling library. Issue you setup sheets based upon your work holding devices and tool holder library.

    It goes far beyond just having a machine that reads standard G-Code. That's the easy part. It's also hard to get a post from some machine tool suppliers. We have some machines without a post for NX, for which we had to roll our own. Others just needed so much modification, we may as well have written it from scratch. You have to know that the post your programmer is using is verified for your machine. Then, once the program is delivered to you -you- need to verify it in -your- software before running it in the machine.

    You'll also lose the ability to fine tune a lot of particulars on some more capable machines, like corner deceleration, surfacing options, etc. The programmer would have to know a whole lot about the machine before being able to successfully program it. Without the person being intimately familiar with your shop and machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawnrs View Post
    Using pirated software is not a very wise choice especially if you are a business owner.
    It's not like any CAD or CAM software company is out there busting downloaders. Have you ever heard of a shop getting pinched for this? And I don't mean you heard from a friend of your uncles old boss's mother in law...does anyone have first hand knowledge of a company who's been caught with an illegal install of, say...Mastercam or SolidWorks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by goooose View Post
    It's not like any CAD or CAM software company is out there busting downloaders. Have you ever heard of a shop getting pinched for this? And I don't mean you heard from a friend of your uncles old boss's mother in law...does anyone have first hand knowledge of a company who's been caught with an illegal install of, say...Mastercam or SolidWorks?
    Yup... Siemens NX....

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    Quote Originally Posted by goooose View Post
    It's not like any CAD or CAM software company is out there busting downloaders. Have you ever heard of a shop getting pinched for this? And I don't mean you heard from a friend of your uncles old boss's mother in law...does anyone have first hand knowledge of a company who's been caught with an illegal install of, say...Mastercam or SolidWorks?
    Jesse James, MasterCam I believe.


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