Small shop guy needs CAD/CAM

I have been a small time machinist and small shop owner for some time. I do mostly one off stuff for custom cars and what ever else comes my way. I recently have sold a large production order, my first, and made a decent amount at the same time. Did it all on a manual Bridgeport. Well now they came back with another large order. I have decided it is time for a CNC mill in the shop. I have spent a considerable amount of time looking for a solution and I have found a couple of machines that will fit the bill and budget. Now I am on to finding CAD/CAM software to design and produce parts. I would love to have high end software but I am on a budget so I need something around $1000 or less. I have looked at Dolphin and BobCad. Dolphin seems pretty good, don't know about the CAM part. Bobcad has numerous horror stories but the there seems to be a lot of users out there. I am looking for any one who has walked in my shoes and can offer advice to a guy trying to get a small shop into the new age. Thanks again Practical Machinist!
Steve

A good low cost starting point you can grow with is Alibre for CAD and Visualmill for CAM.
This combination is very good even with 4 axis work.

Michael

Hi Steve

Onecnc XR4 Express 2.5D would be your best bet for that kinda money ,Dolphin and BC might do the job but I,d bet youll get reliable code out of Onecnc way quicker and more easily.

If then you need 3D there are 3 levels above to progress to.

Cheers Kev

If you have the time - take advantage of the free demos. I tried several well regarded systems that just did not seem intuitive for me. I ended up purchasing BobCad, invested in a 3-day training seminar with Sorin that was well worth it, and am happy with it. I am now doing a lot of 3d parts with it.
-Scott

I'm definitely getting a fair bit done with Onecnc express, great if all you need is 2.5 axis work. Pretty easy to learn and the tutorials made even easier and fast, price seemed reasonable for what it offers. Good simulation too.

try EZCAM: EZCAM CNC CAD-CAM Official Web Site

STJ7780 said:

I have been a small time machinist and small shop owner for some time. I do mostly one off stuff for custom cars and what ever else comes my way. I recently have sold a large production order, my first, and made a decent amount at the same time. Did it all on a manual Bridgeport. Well now they came back with another large order. I have decided it is time for a CNC mill in the shop. I have spent a considerable amount of time looking for a solution and I have found a couple of machines that will fit the bill and budget. Now I am on to finding CAD/CAM software to design and produce parts. I would love to have high end software but I am on a budget so I need something around $1000 or less. I have looked at Dolphin and BobCad. Dolphin seems pretty good, don't know about the CAM part. Bobcad has numerous horror stories but the there seems to be a lot of users out there. I am looking for any one who has walked in my shoes and can offer advice to a guy trying to get a small shop into the new age. Thanks again Practical Machinist!
Steve

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if this will be your first CNC look for one that has a conversational control, it gives you programing at the machine to get started and they also take gcode from cam so when you have decided on a cam software you are still making money while learning the software.

IMO on of the best for conversational is HURCO easest by far over the other CNC's with their conversational/quick code/intuitive programing

just take a look, you can add on modules like dxf/dwg, 3D, tools/materials to the control at any time and will take gcode from any cam software with a HURCO post.

freeflyer said:

A good low cost starting point you can grow with is Alibre for CAD and Visualmill for CAM.
This combination is very good even with 4 axis work.
Michael

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I have heard Alibre mentioned many times with a lot of guys out there using it. I am going to download the trial and give it a shot. Thank you

Kev h said:

Hi Steve

Onecnc XR4 Express 2.5D would be your best bet for that kinda money ,Dolphin and BC might do the job but I,d bet youll get reliable code out of Onecnc way quicker and more easily.

If then you need 3D there are 3 levels above to progress to.

Cheers Kev

Click to expand...

SND said:

I'm definitely getting a fair bit done with Onecnc express, great if all you need is 2.5 axis work. Pretty easy to learn and the tutorials made even easier and fast, price seemed reasonable for what it offers. Good simulation too.

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OneCNC looks great and appears very easy to use. I am all for a more reliable program, through out my search I have found one of the more common complaints is unreliable code output.

SPDTool said:

If you have the time - take advantage of the free demos. I tried several well regarded systems that just did not seem intuitive for me. I ended up purchasing BobCad, invested in a 3-day training seminar with Sorin that was well worth it, and am happy with it. I am now doing a lot of 3d parts with it.
-Scott

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I can't believe the amount of free demos there are. One of the main reasons I started this post was to try and narrow it down to a few to download and try out. How did you like BobCad's training?

len_1962 said:

if this will be your first CNC look for one that has a conversational control, it gives you programing at the machine to get started and they also take gcode from cam so when you have decided on a cam software you are still making money while learning the software.

IMO on of the best for conversational is HURCO easest by far over the other CNC's with their conversational/quick code/intuitive programing

just take a look, you can add on modules like dxf/dwg, 3D, tools/materials to the control at any time and will take gcode from any cam software with a HURCO post.

Click to expand...

I have come across a couple of HURCO machines but the sellers all wanted way more than they were worth. I have thought about buying an older machine with a fried controller and using Mach3. What do you think?

Thanks again guys for the advice and guidance.
Steve

I've not had unreliable code yet, there was issues with the Post itself the first few tries but we tweaked the post until it output exactly what we wanted to see the machine do. Otherwise the simulation is really accurate to what the machine does in reality.

To answer the specific question:
"How did you like BobCad's training"? -
I give it two thumbs up. As you will find, there is a lot of "good, bad, and ugly" talk around BobCad's sales force, and product, but the trainer (Sorin Nenu who is a contractor - not an employee) is top-notch.

If you go with that product, invest the time and money on the training. It will pay for itself in the time you save with having "fluency" with the product.

-Scott

SPTDTool,
What version of Bobcad Cam do you have? I'm considering the new version that hooks up with SolidWorks.

Scott Phillips

STJ7780 said:

I have come across a couple of HURCO machines but the sellers all wanted way more than they were worth. I have thought about buying an older machine with a fried controller and using Mach3. What do you think?

Thanks again guys for the advice and guidance.
Steve

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Steve if it doesn't have the HURCO control don't bother, the control is what makes the machine.
The machine its self is rigid a will hold up to all types of materials but without the conversational side of the machine it's just another CNC.

there is on reason you don't see alot of used HURCO's the owners love them and will sell other machines before them because of the control because anyone can program them.

so what is your budget?

len_1962 said:

Steve if it doesn't have the HURCO control don't bother, the control is what makes the machine.
The machine its self is rigid a will hold up to all types of materials but without the conversational side of the machine it's just another CNC.

there is on reason you don't see alot of used HURCO's the owners love them and will sell other machines before them because of the control because anyone can program them.

so what is your budget?

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There is a HURCO local to me and I gave up pursuing it because I thought I could get more for the money. What machines do you consider good candidates? There is a KMB-1 near me a few few others in neighboring states that are still on the original controls. I have also heard that they are good to .0001". Do you have a Hurco and if so which one. Thanks for the info, you have rekindled my interest in the Hurco machines. The size is perfect too.
Steve

SprutCAM might be available in one of the more basic versions for $1k or less:

Home

It is being sold and supported in the US by Tormach, who make CNC mills for prototyping and short production jobs. There are several SprutCAM tutorials available on YouTube, some by TormachLLC and others by Dukes4Monny, the UK distributor.

The CAM that comes with the Alibre Expert is pretty basic and you may want one of the AlibreCAM add-ons if you need more advanced features. I think that the version that has 4th/5th axis support runs around $4k. Allof the AlibreCAM versions are based on Visual Mill and if you go with that CAM system you should seriously consider buying direct from MecSoft, who makes Visual Mill. The support from MecSoft has been reported to be much better than that from Alibre. Scudzuki (sp?) is a user of that program and can comment authoritatively about it.

Mike

STJ7780 said:

There is a HURCO local to me and I gave up pursuing it because I thought I could get more for the money. What machines do you consider good candidates? There is a KMB-1 near me a few few others in neighboring states that are still on the original controls. I have also heard that they are good to .0001". Do you have a Hurco and if so which one. Thanks for the info, you have rekindled my interest in the Hurco machines. The size is perfect too.
Steve

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Don't have one now, have HAAS's where I work now. ran KM3P's with Control Type: Ultimax 2 & 3 and MAX32 for 5 yrs.

now do not get a HURCO with the single screen BX control, you want the dual screen Ultimax or the newer WinMax single screen. The BX isn't conversational programing!!!!!!!!

best control to get started in CNC, no CAM needed. Have a friend that has bought 3 used HURCO's over the last 10 yrs and they love them, he also has 4 HAAS's and love thoughs too, but need cam for thoses.

if I could have gotten a HURCO I would have but here at ASU HAAS's are at 2 campuses so having one control type was prefered

Mike Henry said:

The CAM that comes with the Alibre Expert is pretty basic and you may want one of the AlibreCAM add-ons if you need more advanced features. I think that the version that has 4th/5th axis support runs around $4k. Allof the AlibreCAM versions are based on Visual Mill and if you go with that CAM system you should seriously consider buying direct from MecSoft, who makes Visual Mill. The support from MecSoft has been reported to be much better than that from Alibre. Scudzuki (sp?) is a user of that program and can comment authoritatively about it.

Mike

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I have Alibre Design Expert and Alibre CAM Expert.
I have stayed out of this discussion thus far but since Mike suggests that my opinion might be useful (thanks for the endorsement Mike) here goes.

First off, I am a hobby user, although not your average hobby user, since I was a machinist/moldmaker/machine designer/CNC programmer for 15 years and thus can actually utilize machine tools properly. My actual experience with solid modeling and CAM is limited to Alibre (although I got my feet wet with Solidworks) since I used trig and a calculator to write my code back when I did it for a living.

I don't find Alibre CAM to be terribly buggy but I don't do any large 3D parts, mostly 2.5 D stuff. The design side of it is adequate, perhaps not as powerful and robust as say Solidworks but sufficiently featured and stable to design my motorcycle parts and various overkill trinkets. I've been able to get the CAM to do what I want in terms of strategies and toolpaths, a few calls to support along the way and a lot of trial and error. I have around $5k invested in the software which is at the deep end for a hobby (but I always go off the deep end) and I know now that at that level one can get into a lower end version of a midrange package like MasterCAM. Still I am happy with what I have.

It lacks constant engagement or trochoidal style HSM so the toolpaths it posts would not be suitable for a production shop in my opinion, but I hear Mecsoft is working on adding CE to the next release.

As to buying integrated A-CAM vs VisualMill, I like the integration of the CAM into the CAD interface and the associativity. The potential downside is I am now stuck with AD as my modeler should I ever want to change. As Mike pointed out, a direct downside is the support from Alibre for the CAM product is not great as they seem to know very little about it... in some cases I knew more than the support agent trying to help me. They will involve Mecsoft if they cannot answer a question but that can precludes getting quick answers in those cases.

The price on Alibre Design has increased quite a bit since I bought it.
For $2k you could get Alibre Design Pro and AlibreCAM standard.
Design Pro is pretty damn powerful for a $1000 parametric solid modeler but was even better when they were selling it for half that price. CAM standard has some 3d toolpaths and is by far the best deal in the Alibre CAM lineup. I believe they have a money back guarantee, too. Personally I'd prefer a fully functional limited duration trial over purchasing and then arguing for a refund but whatcha gunna do...

Oh and the CAM express that comes frre with Alibre Design Expert is so limited as to be worthless IMHO.

My 2 cents.

Joe

DraftSight is an excellent 2D CAD program that's a free download. It and CamBam ($150) are all that I've ever needed for 2.5D work. CamBam will also do 3D toolpaths if you have a 3D CAD program that outputs STL files.

Bobcad

Have used several versions of Bobcad and cam for both 2d (plasma and routing signs)and 3d. The older versions had some issues and limitations that I found frusterating. Currently I am happy with V23 and V24. On both of my machines I am running mach3. Having all the software on the machine computer makes for a userfriendly setup that is powerful and reasonably priced. If you have any specific questions feel free to ask. I don't have enough experience with other software and setups to compare but mine does well and makes money for me.

I'll throw my two cents in since I also chose Alibre Design and CAM. Design, the CAD package, goes on sale all the time and they bundle it up with CAM sometimes. I have CAM Standard, which was $1000. I have Design Professional, which iirc was under $500. So about $1500 total. I would do it again in a heartbeat, but it works well for what I am doing (3-axis CNC mill).

Pros:

• Design is a great CAD package, especially for the money.
• I like the integration between design and CAM.
• Design has LOTS of file format support, more than anything else I found. Important if you take file from other people (that's a double-edged sword!)
• CAM works well and has lots of functionality

Cons:

• If you want to do multisided parts CAM standard is lacking the options that the higher versions have to make it easier, and I think this should be a part of Standard
• Doesn't have those constant cutter engagement toolpaths. To get that you need big money. But once you get familiar with how it calculates toolpaths you can manipulate it to do a damned close job.

Going from a manual mill to any kind of CNC mill is going to up your productivity so much you aren't going to care about this until you run out of time on your new mill.

For ~$1500 you aren't going to get anywhere near the CAD and CAM capabilities of the Alibre offering from anyone else. If you want to spend $10k other packages will have much more capability.

Andy

Hurco does have a very easy to program conversational interface. And I can tell you the VM1 is a great machine. We have held +0 -.0005 bearing bores with a circle mill and a Hanita Varimill.