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  1. #21
    SeymourDumore is online now Diamond
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    dk


    I am certainly not sure, but I think you won't need to contact SW directly by phone.
    I believe it works from PC to SW webserver directly. The catch is that the license is bound to a particular install on the PC and binds with either the CPU, Motherboard ID or something, don't know. It could even be that the activation writes to a particular sector on the drive and points the SW installation to that sector.
    In order to re-install the software, you have to move the install.
    IOW you first have to de-activate the current installation, which frees up the license. You then re-install the software on a different computer and re-activate it using the now freed-up license#.
    Again, this is not what I know, it is how I've interpreted the licensing procedure which was included in my '07 package. The only catch is that back then it was not yet implemented, so if any changes occured to the procedure, I would not know about it.

  2. #22
    BadBeta is offline Stainless
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modelman View Post
    Yeah, you could. But someone can’t legally sell something they don’t own. If the agreement with the original purchaser was simply a “right to use” license, and specifically forbade transferring to another party, then what he is selling becomes an illegal copy when he breaks the agreement. What the implications for a small shop are beyond lack of support I don’t know, but I suspect if you trade drawings with larger firms that have several seats of the software, eventually the software publisher will become aware of your existence. What they can do about it beyond embarrass you in front of your customer I don’t know, but that’s bad enough.

    Additional thought... Every license agreement I’ve offered (for designs, however, not software) has contained a clause that terminates the agreement if the licensee goes bankrupt, or otherwise ceases to do business. I’m sure the same clause is buried in the software license, so it became an illegal copy as soon as the initial firm went bankrupt.Dennis
    Legally this is not straight forward:

    1. The software developer actively sells you a right to use the software, and deliver it in a physical package. One seat, many seats, whatever - you have paid for those rights. (You obviously haven't paid for the DVD it came on as such). They market it as a sale themselves, and in many countries that means that you own what you have paid for. And you get to do what you want with your stuff. They need VERY good reasons to invalidate those rights.

    A software developer has lost a trial over this already. The court conclusion was that if they really wanted to rent out software to a specific user, then that is indeed what they need to market it as. Further it would need a time limit to distingish it from a sale. A non-expiring rental agreement would be regarded as a sale, with the rights that would bring the customer. (As a parallell sidenote the movie and music industry has lost european trials over their efforts to restrict a sold copy of a movie or a DVD to a specific format. You have bought the rights to see the movie, or listen to the music, regardless of listening or watching device).

    2. A legal agreement between two parties requires the active consent of both. Solidworks, and most software companies, does not present their license agreement up front of the sale. Neither have you signed off on it at the time of buying, or before paying. Having a pop-up window presenting pages and pages of legal small print (literally and figuratively) during the installation does not equal a bonafide legal contract. If they want this to be proper they need to present it before the sale, and to be bullet prood needs to get a signature from someone in the buyers company who can legally commit the company. Like any other contract.

    Thus, when you sell your designs, I believe and hope that you actively inform and agree with the buyer what you are selling up front. And that the agreement is signed on by both. (Or the very least, send your terms and restrictions to the buyer before the actual transfer of product and money takes place, and include them in your marketing. For example in your brochures, or a seperate terms of sale sheet. You can then rightfully argue that they knew what they were buying).

    If say you sell something, and then in retrospect deliver it with lots of unmentioned restrictions, then you haven't really sold what you marketed. That usually gets you into trouble.

    But, more important than anything else, there is no proper reasoning for the software industry to behave like this. It is an artifical construction based on pure greed. It is just abuse of their own customers, and someone in these companies should try and actually put their acts in line with their service oriented lip service.

  3. #23
    Modelman is offline Stainless
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    I canít disagree with anything BadBeta saidÖ and yes, all my license agreements have the term specified and are signed by both parties before any money changes hands.

    But I was under the impression that the software vendors were changing their practices, in light of recent court rulings, to make their licenses look more like leases and less like bad faith scams, now requiring annual ďmaintenanceĒ payments... which is one reason I havenít updated any software in a couple of years. I own what I use free and clear, and donít see enough added functionality, for what I do, to want to get into the yearly ransom game.

    I agree with the concept that once you pay your money, the product should be yours to do with as you wish. However, when it comes to intellectual property, such is not always the case.

    Dennis

  4. #24
    SeymourDumore is online now Diamond
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    Dennis

    I agree on intellectual property.
    Software however is NOT intellectual property, at least not when it is packaged as the PRODUCT.
    IOW, You may have your TV set, DVD, machinetool etc etc, which you own.
    You also own each and every part of it and do what you wish with it as a part.
    What you may not do is use the contents of said part and under the notion of "ownership" modify, re-package and the re-sell.
    In the case of software it would be like using the sourcecode to make another product and transfer it.
    I for one consider a box of Solidworks 2007 to be exactly that. A box of Solidworks 2007, which is no different than the hammer, screwdriver or a CNC lathe.

  5. #25
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    Autodesk the makers of AutoCad already lost a lawsuit regarding the sale of "licensed" software. This may be the first of many if the software companies continue down this road. Remember the ruling ragarding the sale of windows operating systems? The court ruled that you had to have both the original disk and the COA to sell the software. Based on the current rulings I'd say you have the right to sell. I don't think the software companies want the bad press because then everyone would know their glass house is cracked and ready to crumble.

    Here's an over view of the AutoCad ruling:
    http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...-software.html

  6. #26
    BadBeta is offline Stainless
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    To me this is not about intellectual property or physical products. It is about a reasonable approach, and actually owning what you have bought with the usual perks of owning something - right to sell included.

    If they do want to go down the path of putting up overly creative and irrational stumbling blocks for their customers that is fine, but then they need to say so. And stop treating it as sold products, when what they really want to deliver is more of a subscription.

    With the danger of giving them new ideas might I suggest a few based on the same insane logic: (Sorry RJ! )

    1. Your license is for normal work only. Thus it will not work on Saturday and Sundays, but for a nice extra payment that can be activated on short notice. Contact your value added rarely agent.
    2. Your license can only be used within the confines of your office. If you need to install it on a notebook or other mobile plattform you will need our tamed and roaming license.
    3. We want 10% of the profit of everything you make using our software. It is only reasonable as our marketeers have calculated that you save much more using it.

    Consider the usual license crap in a more physical world. You buy a car, pay, and pick it up. On the inside of the windshield there is a term sheet which states you agree with everything it says if you tear it off. Among other things it says is that if you go broke you can not sell the car, and you are the only allowed driver although obviously only one can drive at the time anyway. Further you might not use it outside your region, whether that is US, Europe or other places.

    Seymour, the Solidworks computer ID is connected to the harddrive. I know because I have a computer with hardware switched primary hard drives, and it refuses to install on more than one of them. (With the rest of the computer being identical, it must identify the hard drive).

  7. #27
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    Seymour, the Solidworks computer ID is connected to the harddrive. I know because I have a computer with hardware switched primary hard drives, and it refuses to install on more than one of them. (With the rest of the computer being identical, it must identify the hard drive).
    FWIW, there are utilities available to change the HD volume ID to get around that. I'm sure there's someone here who can describe how it's done.

  8. #28
    Modelman is offline Stainless
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    Quote Originally Posted by daleroe View Post
    Here's an over view of the AutoCad ruling:
    http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...-software.html
    Interesting, and very timely, the ruling being issued in May of this year. However, as with everything involving the law, the situation is hardly cut and dried. To quote the pertinent point, far down in the article:

    "But the judge acknowledged that three more recent Ninth Circuit decisions involving software seemed to cut in the opposite direction without explicitly overturning Wise. Jones found that Wise was controlling precedent, and ruled in Vernor's favor. If the case gets appealed to the Ninth Circuit, the conflict among these precedents is likely to occupy the court's attention. The trio of more recent cases hints that the Ninth Circuit is sympathetic to characterizing software sales as licenses for legal purposes."

    This is, unfortunately, the reality of how law is made, it takes a sufficient weight of precedent before everyone acknowledges that this is how things are, and stops filing suit trying to swing things the other way. What small shop owner has the $$$ to go to court to defend his position? The only way the case cited made it to trial was that Public Citizen took the case for free, because they deemed it to be the best test case for their purpose. It will likely take dozens more cases in the other circuits, and perhaps a trip to the Supreme Court if the Circuit courts donít agree, before the software giants stop trying to make your software self destruct if you sell it, or even attempt to move it from one machine to another.

    Meanwhile, if the OP's Solidworks switches itself off after thirty days, he's still screwed, and if the original owner refunds his money, then that guy is screwed.

    Dennis

  9. #29
    BadBeta is offline Stainless
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    You actually have to admire the confused and fruity minds in the software industry who came up with that concept. They have effectivly killed off the used market for their own products, and with products costing the same as small cars that doesn't really strike me as infinite economical wisdom.

    (I have a hard time seeing car manufacturers trying to make their own used products worthless, thus increasing the potential downside and risk for new buyers).

  10. #30
    dkmc is offline Diamond
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    3. We want 10% of the profit of everything you make using our software. It is only reasonable as our marketeers have calculated that you save much more using it.
    Well, the insurance companies learned that trick decades ago.....why not the CAD/CAM gods too??

    I guess the Acad lawsuit is a first step in the right direction.
    I will -never- give autocad one thin dime of mine.

    It seems there was talk few years back of logging onto a website and 'leasing' CAD software as needed? It's not even installed on your PC....you work archived on their storage server......."it's off site, and safer that way".
    The 10% idea could fit in nicely with that, send us our profit sharing check, or you can't access your files.

  11. #31
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    Mudflap. If the SW installation is tied to the hard drive identity, have you considered trying to use one of the hard disk cloning tools like Norton Ghost? to make an exact copy of the properly installed hard drive and see if the software runs on the same computer? It should. The question is whether or not it would run on a different computer...

  12. #32
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    I'm not a solidworks user so I can't say. I do believe most such licensing schemes look at the HD for it's serial number/ID number, so a ghosted installation will fail.

  13. #33
    BadBeta is offline Stainless
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkmc View Post
    It seems there was talk few years back of logging onto a website and 'leasing' CAD software as needed? It's not even installed on your PC....you work archived on their storage server......."it's off site, and safer that way".
    Like I mentioned above, that is the direction I fear. Google Office, Google Sketch 3D, online backup services, picture libraries - they are free today, but I guess that is just to get us addicted and committed before gradually hitting us with bills when we are hooked. Web based programs, external storage, thin clients... I'm running for the hills!

    (The only program I know of that actually successfully implemented the lease scheme is Revit).

    Mudflap, I guess the serial/ ID of a harddrive might be faked. Still, the easiest way to get a working version on another hard drive is a pirate version. Using the same legit user and license info as the legal one - but it doesn't call home during installation.

    (Ah, the irony: The legit version can't be installed due to its anti-piracy schemes, so the work around is to use a pirated version which is what the problem was supposed to prevent in the first place!..)

  14. #34
    SeymourDumore is online now Diamond
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    Mudflap

    I use Acronis True Image to create monthly clones of my drive.
    Apparently that does not effect the '07 installs.

    DK

    As far as Autodesk, I'd like to hear from an Inventor user if there is a Save-As command and if there is the possibility to save-as a previous Inventor version.
    I know in Mech Desktop (ACAD) you can save as 4 previous versions.
    In Solidworks, there is no such thing, which is disgusting to say the least.
    Also, imprted models cannot be manipulated greatly in SW unless you have FeatureWorks.
    IOW Solidworks's importing and data translation is downright useless.

  15. #35
    Joe788 is online now Titanium
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    SW08 has a decent scheme for installing one seat on multiple machines. The license for the seat is activated through a drop down menu in Solidworks. When you want to use it on a different computer, you go to the drop down menu, de-activate it, and then re-activate it from whichever computer you're using next.

    Not as easy as having nothing at all, but I think it's better than a physical dongle. The only bummer is the computer has to be connected to the internet.

    (The computer does not have to be hooked up to the internet all the time, just when you activate or de-activate)

  16. #36
    dkmc is offline Diamond
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    I know in Mech Desktop (ACAD) you can save as 4 previous versions.
    In Solidworks, there is no such thing, which is disgusting to say the least.
    Also, imprted models cannot be manipulated greatly in SW unless you have FeatureWorks.
    IOW Solidworks's importing and data translation is downright useless.
    Well that's interesting as well as pretty damn disgusting.
    What are the implications of that? If I do a model in SW08,
    someone with SW 06 or 07 can't open it? Is that what you're saying?
    Does SW pro version include featureworks?.....lemme guess....NO.....


    Not as easy as having nothing at all, but I think it's better than a physical dongle. The only bummer is the computer has to be connected to the internet.
    This seat of 08 has a USB dongle with it.......??

  17. #37
    SeymourDumore is online now Diamond
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    Joe

    Aren't you talking about the network license?
    Because that is different than an individual license. I think the network lic. means you can have as many SW installations as you please, but only as many licenses as you need simultaneously. If you want either seat activated, you just use one of the available licenses from the lic. server, which will be locked until you log out of your SW session. Then that lic. becomes available for the next guy.

  18. #38
    SeymourDumore is online now Diamond
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkmc View Post
    Well that's interesting as well as pretty damn disgusting.
    What are the implications of that? If I do a model in SW08,
    someone with SW 06 or 07 can't open it?
    That is correct Sir!
    It even pops up a window telling you that it was created with SW '08, and then allows you to gracefully close the window an pound sand.
    And before anyone tries to make an escuse for Solidworks Co, about not being able to transfer sketch data and feature tree to previous versions... well blow it out your ass.
    I have downloaded demo Inventor files and imported them into SW with a fairly decent success of retaining the featuretree.
    In fact I'll be checking with Inventor to see how IT handles native SW formats.

  19. #39
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    Compare all this with Solid Edge's licensing. With a stand alone seat, you can install it on as many computers as you wish, whichever one you plug the dongle into will run. With a network license, you get a home use dongle with every seat owned so you don't have to carry dongles around. You can download temporary no-dongle licenses from their website in case your dongle fails. You can also download short term travel licenses in case you need to go on the road with your laptop or etc. and leave the dongle at work. There's no need for SW to be so draconian. I think such extreme measures works against the seller, at least it does with me.

    SE isn't backward compatible, V21 files won't open in V20, they say that's because the new version has technology the the older version can't deal with but with the new Synchronous Technology in V21 (officially called ST, not V21) you can open and edit native SW files, Pro E files, etc, including parasolid and ACIS files just like they were ST files so from now forward backward compatibility won't be an issue.

  20. #40
    SeymourDumore is online now Diamond
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    Mudflap

    Interesting about the backwards compatibility thing.
    Do you think that previous versions used a secret and now forgotten technology so save-as cannot be accomplished?
    And how is it that SE can open SW files but SW can not?

    Yup, maybe not evident yet but willing to bet that sooner or later it will be a requirement for your new releases to be saveable for recent, but older versions to open.
    That is once you (SW) get's back on this planet. Apparently they have just recently had to back down on the increased re-licensing fees and penalties due to customer grumblings.

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