SolidWorks Changing the renew policy?? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Ils peuvent aller baiser Eux-mêmes!

    Onshapei Oui Oui!

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    I think they just stepped on their pecker..

    2005 SW still working well for me..

    Brent

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    SolidWorks has been making ALL the wrong moves:

    - SolidWorks has always kind of sucked at surfacing. Everyone else has been bring organic NURBS modeling into their packages natively, while SW is still using old-school surfacing tools (extrude, sweep, loft, etc). They could have acquired T-Splines (Autodesk did). They could still acquire PowerSurface. Instead, they punted advanced surfacing features off onto SolidWorks Design Conceptual - a totally separate program that can only transfer dumb solids into the primary CAD package. Oh, it's also something like $3000 a year. Idiotic.

    - Other companies are offering a native CAM solution, or partnering for serious integration. SolidWorks could have acquired HSM Works (one of the best new CAM systems ever) and let them focus on making it great. Oops, Autodesk did that and derailed core CAM development so the HSM team could rewrite everything for Fusion360 and Inventor. DSS could partner with another CAM company, or buy the same tool path algorithms HSM Works uses and create their own 100% integrated CAM solution. But they aren't...

    - The core SolidWorks program hasn't changed much in the last 5 years. Those of you still running 2010 are basically stable. I've been paying $2k a year to a VAR (who I've never called for support), for the most minimalist of functional upgrades. Seriously - Conics only came out in 2014. G2 fillets last year along with style splines. Boo!

    - Now they are putting the boot on the throat of upgrades. They know they are about to bleed money to OnShape and Fusion360; these products are maturing at a pace SolidWorks has never operated at, with cost barriers that make the $6k for a SW seat look like a total ripoff, and compatibility with native SW files.

    This is a death spiral. Instead of improving their product and making it worth the price of admission, they are choosing to do the easy/short term thing and squeeze the user base.

    These guys are fuckin' toast.

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    Funny that ADSK is playing both sides of the fence, they are doing the same squeeze on desktop programs and hedging their bet with fusion 360.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csharp View Post
    Funny that ADSK is playing both sides of the fence, they are doing the same squeeze on desktop programs and hedging their bet with fusion 360.
    The big difference is - ADSK is (at least with Inventor) making the software better. They bought T-Splines and integrated it. They bought better rendering + animation, and integrated it. They bought CAM and integrated it. They keep hammering on the interface, and improving it. They keep adding new tools and improving the core. I'm evaluating Inventor now, and it's actually become a pretty solid piece of software.

    SolidWorks? No major enhancements in *years*.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csharp View Post
    I agree and feel that is why they are moving to this business model, very similar to ADSK.

    Now if my customers would quit upgrading every year maybe I could skip a year or so.
    That's my "problem" as well. I like being able to open the files natively and suppress certain features or get an idea of the design intent. Getting ready to renew my subscription at the end of next month, if our customers do the same.

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    Hey, just be grateful that they haven't (yet) decided to go the ADSK route of the "Desktop Subscription", which is for all intents and purposes
    a glorified rental program.

    I am safe as is since I do have the full suite (Inventor PDSU ) with active maintenance, but new seats of most individual products are no longer
    available as desktop perpetual licenses.
    What that means is that you cannot "make up" for the skipping of maintenance costs over the price of a new seat in 3 years.
    The full suite will require maybe 5 or 6 years to break even.

    As to "rental" software... I don't know about you guys, but my business depends on this stuff for each and every day.
    I don't rent my machines, don't rent my cutting tools, or even my vehicles.
    I sure as shiit ain't gonna start renting an equally important piece of my operation such as CAD or CAM software.

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    As to "rental" software... I don't know about you guys, but my business depends on this stuff for each and every day.
    I don't rent my machines, don't rent my cutting tools, or even my vehicles.
    I sure as shiit ain't gonna start renting an equally important piece of my operation such as CAD or CAM software.
    I guess it depends on you're perspective. If you're the kinda person who stays on maintenance, you damn sure feel like you're "renting" software, so the transition doesn't have quite the same slap-in-the-face. On some level to me, spending $2k a year on the primary tool I use to get work done seems like a pretty flipping great deal!

    On the other hand, it only feels like a great deal if that software is continually getting better the way software should. Bug fixes. Feature additions. Occasional big updates to avoid the intrinsic entropy of technical debt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Hey, just be grateful that they haven't (yet) decided to go the ADSK route of the "Desktop Subscription", which is for all intents and purposes
    a glorified rental program.

    I am safe as is since I do have the full suite (Inventor PDSU ) with active maintenance, but new seats of most individual products are no longer
    available as desktop perpetual licenses.
    What that means is that you cannot "make up" for the skipping of maintenance costs over the price of a new seat in 3 years.
    The full suite will require maybe 5 or 6 years to break even.

    As to "rental" software... I don't know about you guys, but my business depends on this stuff for each and every day.
    I don't rent my machines, don't rent my cutting tools, or even my vehicles.
    I sure as shiit ain't gonna start renting an equally important piece of my operation such as CAD or CAM software.
    What he said.

    At some point the sophistication of modeling software will have reached the point of diminishing return for users who design their own products. By that I mean basically model the shape as opposed to performing FEA, CFD or complex motion studies. Making the physical shape, there are only so many improvements that can be made when you consider that some of us used to model the parts in mahogany and fillet them with wax and a ball tool (it was good enough, it just wasn't very fast). Once your CAD system is powerful enough to propagate a fillet all over the most complex shape you're going ever going to deal with, it will probably never need to be any better. As long as you own a way to post your models it might well be a perfectly rational decision to just get off the CAD merry-go-round. It will always be in the interest of the CAM producers to provide the widest possible compatibility for their products, so in theory you could upgrade Mastercam every year and still be able to process your SW2005 models.

    I do know that if after a subscription lapse I had to buy the seat from scratch as if I hadn't patronized SW for 15 years, then I'd damn well buy something else. And if it ever gets to the point that you can no longer actually purchase your version and own it forever, then the perceived value of the software "product" will go off a cliff. Maybe it would create a market for private tutors specializing in teaching older versions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    it only feels like a great deal if that software is continually getting better ..
    Actually, from here on end it will always feel like a great deal (for me) regardless of software having to get any better.

    If Customer A decides to go the rental route, I have the ability to open his/her files.
    If however Customer B sticks with IV 2009, I can open his files in Inventor 2009, edit it if needed and save it as such so he/she
    can see it.

    With that said, I am guessing that this scheme will blow up in someone's face sooner or later.
    It is one thing that an Adobe or Corel goes the rental route with the artsy-fartsy crowd on the image editing stuff.
    There are and will always be other ( often freeware ) tools to open their crap.

    At the same time I am curious what the multinationals with combined millions of installed AutoCAD seats going to say when
    their software must be "activated" for this year, otherwise there won't be any viewing of the spacecraft, airplane, CT scanner or skyscraper
    of yesteryear.

    Like I've said, I am safe. ( for the moment anyway)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    ...I am curious what the multinationals with combined millions of installed AutoCAD seats going to say when their software must be "activated" for this year, otherwise there won't be any viewing of the spacecraft, airplane, CT scanner or skyscraper of yesteryear.
    That would be an interesting faceoff between executives, wouldn't it? No doubt the software companies will screw everybody as long as they are confident everybody's at their mercy. But customers have long memories. Henry Ford got laughed at when he asked machine tool builders for equipment to bore all eight cylinders at once. They sure quit laughing after he started building his own production equipment. Can you imagine one of these software pricks telling Gene Haas they're going to limit the functionality of his CAD system unless he jumps thru hoops?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    That would be an interesting faceoff between executives, wouldn't it? No doubt the software companies will screw everybody as long as they are confident everybody's at their mercy. But customers have long memories. Henry Ford got laughed at when he asked machine tool builders for equipment to bore all eight cylinders at once. They sure quit laughing after he started building his own production equipment. Can you imagine one of these software pricks telling Gene Haas they're going to limit the functionality of his CAD system unless he jumps thru hoops?
    That right there makes me want to buy a Haas.

    SW has gone full Pro-E. EPDM is French for data hostage.

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    sounds like all some crafty devil needs to do is stop this pop up:


    "FUTURE VERSION"

    Since nothing really changes why can't SW2013 open SW2015?
    answer: because they don't want you to.....

    forward compatibility BS
    Last edited by mkd; 08-27-2015 at 11:01 AM.

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    The thinly veiled loathing shop owners have for the software companies reminds me of something I heard on talk radio once. Apparently the IRS prepared for the aftermath of nuclear war by writing detailed plans for collection of a 100% income tax. The host asked his listeners to imagine what might happen to a revenue officer who showed up at somebody's post-armageddon cave dwelling to collect for the treasury. It crossed my mind that a good use for hoarded diesel might be to operate a 24-inch augur about fifteen feet deep. One tries to purge the mind of such thoughts, but being reminded just now of FUTURE VERSION brought it right back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    The thinly veiled loathing shop owners have for the software companies reminds me of something I heard on talk radio once. Apparently the IRS prepared for the aftermath of nuclear war by writing detailed plans for collection of a 100% income tax. The host asked his listeners to imagine what might happen to a revenue officer who showed up at somebody's post-armageddon cave dwelling to collect for the treasury. It crossed my mind that a good use for hoarded diesel might be to operate a 24-inch augur about fifteen feet deep. One tries to purge the mind of such thoughts, but being reminded just now of FUTURE VERSION brought it right back.
    Well here's an actual story on it. Nothing about 100% income tax though.

    Nuclear War Plan by I.R.S. - NYTimes.com

  19. #36
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    Default SW is a shaper

    Some things which are becoming apparent with SW.

    SW as we know is now a dead development product. These CAD system are the front end of a modeling kernels. SW uses parasolid which is owned by Siemens. Dassault owner of SW owns CGM for Catia. Dessault is pushing their new 3D Experience (3DX) CAD, based on the CGM kernel, as the companies future. They have stated SW will go away. They say 15 years.

    SW 2016 and up will be focused on UI and UX (user interface and user experience; yeah i know who gives a f$#K). Basically, they are moving the buttons around to train users for 3DX. Any $$ money you pay will go to the development of 3DX and this UI. Nothing will go to developing the core product of SW.

    Anyway you look at it there will be a new program to learn and data translation. This is not a bad thing if you trust Dassault. It will be a smooth and painless transition.

    For those of us with thinking minds, there are options.

    Fusion 360: I don't know much about it. I can't get past the advertising demos. Both 3DX and Fusion 360 advertising piss me off. I have been burned by CAD demos too many times to believe this crap.

    Solid Edge: I know. Who? They have been gaining traction and are a big reason for the SW death. I like them. I am not paying SW $$ any more. They are my fallback. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNBucWi4xdg

    On Shape: Ya gotta love them.

    I have not really decided. I do have my prejudices. I mostly have lack of trust. I don't like the idea of my data being held hostage.

    I am not paying any more money to Dassault. I think they will be begging people back.

    The real good news is, I don't need $5k to switch CAD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willysnowman View Post
    Fusion 360: I don't know much about it. I can't get past the advertising demos. Both 3DX and Fusion 360 advertising piss me off. I have been burned by CAD demos too many times to believe this crap.
    No benefit to me if you believe (or like) it or not, but the Fusion 360 YouTube channel just uploaded a video made by a customer. This guy has done some pretty cool stuff with it:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomkinder View Post
    No benefit to me if you believe (or like) it or not, but the Fusion 360 YouTube channel just uploaded a video made by a customer. This guy has done some pretty cool stuff with it:

    I would love to see the ability to "draw a toolpath" in fusion. I have used fusion and never seen that ability. I have software that I can "draw" a path and the tool will follow regardless of stock or model, but not fusion. Would have to see to believe it.

    Below is a link to where he mentions drawing a toolpath.

    https://youtu.be/2Rt5wIE4Gh0?t=169

    I think Jeff from backhand bikes is very talented. But I am skeptical since I heard they "sponsor" some of the youtube channels with people promoting their product. So now every time I see someone bragging it up I get a little skeptical about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csharp View Post
    I would love to see the ability to "draw a toolpath" in fusion. I have used fusion and never seen that ability. I have software that I can "draw" a path and the tool will follow regardless of stock or model, but not fusion. Would have to see to believe it.

    Below is a link to where he mentions drawing a toolpath.

    https://youtu.be/2Rt5wIE4Gh0?t=169

    I think Jeff from backhand bikes is very talented. But I am skeptical since I heard they "sponsor" some of the youtube channels with people promoting their product. So now every time I see someone bragging it up I get a little skeptical about it.
    I'm pretty sure he drew a sketch on a vertical plane and used a trace function, you can see it in the video when he clicks on the toolpath. Same thing could be done in SW/HSMWorks (or even Xpress). Makes sense for speeding up production to put 15 minutes into a toolpath if it saves an hour during the run I think (something else I'm trying to convince people at work of, mainly investing in time for fixtures to reduce setup time).

    I also remember when Jeff was very active in the CAM 360 beta forum before it was all integrated into Fusion and moved to the Autodesk CAM forum. He worked out a lot of bugs and was very vocal about problems he was having.

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    Gotcha ya. I have software that you can actually just draw the toolpath if you want and not have to apply a trace operation afterwards. I was always thinking other cam systems should offer something like that. I agree with programming for efficiency. You on pay once to program efficiently, but will pay every time you run the parts with an inefficient toolpath.

    I don't doubt Jeff is a real advocate of the program. I just think they should have stuck with advocates vs sponsoring some since it makes me wonder if they really like the product or are they getting something to "like" the product.


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