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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post

    What happened to Smurfcam ? I thought that was nicer than Mastercam.
    It's still out here, we are just LOL at all of this, surfcam traditional rules!

    cause it always works and better than masterscam

    the new surfcam VERO just used EdgeCam and changed it to look like a surfcam product. there is still both products edgecam and new surfcam.

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  3. #82
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    As with all programs there are pros and cons to different strategies. I know the horse named "cloud" has been beaten before, but a few points we don't always discuss.

    "if your internet goes down your dead in the water"
    As mentioned in previous threads, you can work in offline mode, and keep cached versions of your files locally.

    "If you let the subscription stop, you can't do anything"
    True, but I believe you can still export your data to a neutral format like STEP to use in other systems.
    Now, what if you are off maintenance and your hardware dongle fries, or your software key stops working. Will you have to pay something to get running again? (some companies yes, some no)

    "having a cloud based software and having to save files on someone else's server seems sketchy"
    An argument can be made that storing things locally is just as risky. It's much easier to stick in a USB and steal something than to crack a high end data center.

    - Does your shop meet NSA, NASA, Department of Defense, etc., standards for security?

    - Do you employ 24 hour security personnel, all of which have passed background checks, for protecting the physical data?

    - Are all outside people that enter your facility escorted 100% of the time by security?

    - Are you using 256 bit encryption of all the data on your local computers?

    - If your physical location isn't locked down well, that's an easier weak link to exploit.

    Backup:

    - Are your backups just as secure as you shop data?

    - Are your backups offsite in event of fire or other disaster? Are you manually moving backups to an offsite location? If you are backing up over the internet, shouldn't you be just as concerned about being hacked that way as you are about saving data on a cloud service?

    - when discussing the cost of a CAD/CAM system, also include the costs of backing up and managing your data. As that's included in cloud based offerings. Add in the cost of backing up, plus persons for handling security, which is already included in the cloud model.

    "We're a 2 billion company and we'll never use the cloud."

    - Really, because their use of SalesForce is all in the cloud
    - Their ERP system is cloud based.

    - if you were going to hack someone, I'd really rather hack their CRM customer database. Which customers pay what amount, which customers are unhappy, how much specific customers order of what. Realistically, unless it's a part from the F35, most any part can be reverse engineered once it's out in the public.

  4. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffj View Post
    As with all programs there are pros and cons to different strategies. I know the horse named "cloud" has been beaten before, but a few points we don't always discuss.

    "if your internet goes down your dead in the water"
    As mentioned in previous threads, you can work in offline mode, and keep cached versions of your files locally.

    "If you let the subscription stop, you can't do anything"
    True, but I believe you can still export your data to a neutral format like STEP to use in other systems.
    Now, what if you are off maintenance and your hardware dongle fries, or your software key stops working. Will you have to pay something to get running again? (some companies yes, some no)

    "having a cloud based software and having to save files on someone else's server seems sketchy"
    An argument can be made that storing things locally is just as risky. It's much easier to stick in a USB and steal something than to crack a high end data center.

    - Does your shop meet NSA, NASA, Department of Defense, etc., standards for security?

    - Do you employ 24 hour security personnel, all of which have passed background checks, for protecting the physical data?

    - Are all outside people that enter your facility escorted 100% of the time by security?

    - Are you using 256 bit encryption of all the data on your local computers?

    - If your physical location isn't locked down well, that's an easier weak link to exploit.

    Backup:

    - Are your backups just as secure as you shop data?

    - Are your backups offsite in event of fire or other disaster? Are you manually moving backups to an offsite location? If you are backing up over the internet, shouldn't you be just as concerned about being hacked that way as you are about saving data on a cloud service?

    - when discussing the cost of a CAD/CAM system, also include the costs of backing up and managing your data. As that's included in cloud based offerings. Add in the cost of backing up, plus persons for handling security, which is already included in the cloud model.

    "We're a 2 billion company and we'll never use the cloud."

    - Really, because their use of SalesForce is all in the cloud
    - Their ERP system is cloud based.

    - if you were going to hack someone, I'd really rather hack their CRM customer database. Which customers pay what amount, which customers are unhappy, how much specific customers order of what. Realistically, unless it's a part from the F35, most any part can be reverse engineered once it's out in the public.
    Jeff, good points the cloud from security does not bother me all that much. Being locked out of my files and my information does. Also ADSK has the ability to change the software in a direction I don't want and have no way to stop and access prior data that I paid to create, there is no cam neutral format.


    Do you happen to be an ADSK employee? Not that it matters just curious, the name and initial looked familiar.

  5. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffj View Post
    As with all programs there are pros and cons to different strategies. I know the horse named "cloud" has been beaten before, but a few points we don't always discuss.

    "if your internet goes down your dead in the water"
    As mentioned in previous threads, you can work in offline mode, and keep cached versions of your files locally.

    "If you let the subscription stop, you can't do anything"
    True, but I believe you can still export your data to a neutral format like STEP to use in other systems.
    Now, what if you are off maintenance and your hardware dongle fries, or your software key stops working. Will you have to pay something to get running again? (some companies yes, some no)

    "having a cloud based software and having to save files on someone else's server seems sketchy"
    An argument can be made that storing things locally is just as risky. It's much easier to stick in a USB and steal something than to crack a high end data center.

    - Does your shop meet NSA, NASA, Department of Defense, etc., standards for security?

    - Do you employ 24 hour security personnel, all of which have passed background checks, for protecting the physical data?

    - Are all outside people that enter your facility escorted 100% of the time by security?

    - Are you using 256 bit encryption of all the data on your local computers?

    - If your physical location isn't locked down well, that's an easier weak link to exploit.

    Backup:

    - Are your backups just as secure as you shop data?

    - Are your backups offsite in event of fire or other disaster? Are you manually moving backups to an offsite location? If you are backing up over the internet, shouldn't you be just as concerned about being hacked that way as you are about saving data on a cloud service?

    - when discussing the cost of a CAD/CAM system, also include the costs of backing up and managing your data. As that's included in cloud based offerings. Add in the cost of backing up, plus persons for handling security, which is already included in the cloud model.

    "We're a 2 billion company and we'll never use the cloud."

    - Really, because their use of SalesForce is all in the cloud
    - Their ERP system is cloud based.

    - if you were going to hack someone, I'd really rather hack their CRM customer database. Which customers pay what amount, which customers are unhappy, how much specific customers order of what. Realistically, unless it's a part from the F35, most any part can be reverse engineered once it's out in the public.
    I can't argue those points much.
    But I'm still not going to use a cloud based software. Call me old and stubborn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csharp View Post
    Jeff, good points the cloud from security does not bother me all that much. Being locked out of my files and my information does. Also ADSK has the ability to change the software in a direction I don't want and have no way to stop and access prior data that I paid to create, there is no cam neutral format.


    Do you happen to be an ADSK employee? Not that it matters just curious, the name and initial looked familiar.
    Yes I am, for two years now.

    Although it does sound like a long winded pitch, I'm not trying to convince people of one thing over another, people really ought to use what works best for their individual application. However, I read some of the same comments again and again that are just incorrect, or based on old data. Once in a while I get the urge to jump in and reply. Not trying to start arguments though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffj View Post
    Yes I am, for two years now.
    Although it does sound like a long winded pitch, I'm not trying to convince people of one thing over another, people really ought to use what works best for their individual application. However, I read some of the same comments again and again that are just incorrect, or based on old data. Once in a while I get the urge to jump in and reply. Not trying to start arguments though.
    Here's the point that AD employees and paid advocates never seem to grasp -

    Many of us are NOT the "2B/yr" company. We're small Mom'n'Pop shops, many of us, with our own ideas and designs, as well as those of our valued customers. In my specific case, I have a small number of personal designs that I have been working on for years. And I am ( and, presumably others are ) not doing so simply for the pleasure of giving them away due to stupidity, benevolence, or someone else being less secure than they told everyone they were. Storing those on someone else's media is plainly, and simply, stupid and asking for trouble.

    They love to trot out the high levels of security and encryption being employed. Oddly enough, I never once see them offer a monetary guarantee against the loss of data and/or access. Why not? If they're REALLY that secure, why not guarantee it? ( you get the point, I'm sure )

    Can someone break into my shop and steal my stuff? Absolutely. And I can tell you that I will at least be able to rest knowing that I did everything I could to avoid that, as opposed to simply handing it to them because they told me it was safe.

    Likewise, ( as Csharp rightfully points out ) I can work on it when I want to work on it. Not when someone else tells me it's okay by way of uptime or connectivity.

    There are other reasons, but those are the big ones. Even accepting those, I tried. I really, really tried. Maybe at some point I might try again. But there will have to be a very good goddam reason to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    Here's the point that AD employees and paid advocates never seem to grasp -

    Many of us are NOT the "2B/yr" company. We're small Mom'n'Pop shops, many of us, with our own ideas and designs, as well as those of our valued customers. In my specific case, I have a small number of personal designs that I have been working on for years. And I am ( and, presumably others are ) not doing so simply for the pleasure of giving them away due to stupidity, benevolence, or someone else being less secure than they told everyone they were. Storing those on someone else's media is plainly, and simply, stupid and asking for trouble.

    They love to trot out the high levels of security and encryption being employed. Oddly enough, I never once see them offer a monetary guarantee against the loss of data and/or access. Why not? If they're REALLY that secure, why not guarantee it? ( you get the point, I'm sure )

    Can someone break into my shop and steal my stuff? Absolutely. And I can tell you that I will at least be able to rest knowing that I did everything I could to avoid that, as opposed to simply handing it to them because they told me it was safe.

    Likewise, ( as Csharp rightfully points out ) I can work on it when I want to work on it. Not when someone else tells me it's okay by way of uptime or connectivity.

    There are other reasons, but those are the big ones. Even accepting those, I tried. I really, really tried. Maybe at some point I might try again. But there will have to be a very good goddam reason to do so.
    It's like letting your girlfrind carry your gun in her purse. She might be a better shot than you. And she can still use it if you are compromised. But if her purse gets snatched it's gone, and if she's compromised or if she sets it down and forgets it, or goes to the bathroom with it, or you wander off in a crowd you still have no gun to use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffj View Post
    I know the horse named "cloud" has been beaten before, but a few points we don't always discuss.
    You forgot one : if you trust a software company, you are an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mud View Post
    It's like letting your girlfrind carry your gun in her purse. She might be a better shot than you. And she can still use it if you are compromised. But if her purse gets snatched it's gone, and if she's compromised or if she sets it down and forgets it, or goes to the bathroom with it, or you wander off in a crowd you still have no gun to use.
    In THAT specific. case, it would actually be a good idea. Because, if my wife had discovered I had a girlfriend, she'd shoot me with my own gun.

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    I love how you are comparing a catastrophic failure of a usb stick to that of the internet or servers going down. I trust the qc of electronic device over that of the reliability of the internet. You description of cyber security is flawed, you as a small company has a much smaller target on you compared to a large multinational with huge infrastructure. You can not compare the needs of each equally. Your one computer sitting on the internet compared to a server farm is different exposure profile. Hey look at me guys I hacked the obscure machines shop computer and stole there data vs I hacked this large multinational for the old street credit industry. You can very easily protect the cam computer from internet intrusion by disconnecting it from a consent internet connection and having a second low power computer to do all your web and email needs.
    rant done.

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  15. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by nofxz View Post
    I love how you are comparing a catastrophic failure of a usb stick to that of the internet or servers going down. I trust the qc of electronic device over that of the reliability of the internet. You description of cyber security is flawed, you as a small company has a much smaller target on you compared to a large multinational with huge infrastructure. You can not compare the needs of each equally. Your one computer sitting on the internet compared to a server farm is different exposure profile. Hey look at me guys I hacked the obscure machines shop computer and stole there data vs I hacked this large multinational for the old street credit industry. You can very easily protect the cam computer from internet intrusion by disconnecting it from a consent internet connection and having a second low power computer to do all your web and email needs.
    rant done.
    Well he works for Autodesk. There goes an unbiased opinion

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    Quote Originally Posted by nofxz View Post
    I love how you are comparing a catastrophic failure of a usb stick to that of the internet or servers going down. I trust the qc of electronic device over that of the reliability of the internet. You description of cyber security is flawed, you as a small company has a much smaller target on you compared to a large multinational with huge infrastructure. You can not compare the needs of each equally. Your one computer sitting on the internet compared to a server farm is different exposure profile. Hey look at me guys I hacked the obscure machines shop computer and stole there data vs I hacked this large multinational for the old street credit industry. You can very easily protect the cam computer from internet intrusion by disconnecting it from a consent internet connection and having a second low power computer to do all your web and email needs.
    rant done.
    Ah, but you just made the exact same (well, opposite) logical fallacy that Jeff did.

    If the data on the insecure obscure machine shop computer is "inherently secure" because it's a smaller target, that's confirmation that the data isn't desired/valued.

    If the data IS desired/valued, then having it on an insecure obscure machine shop computer is a security risk, and it would likely be better placed on AWS servers.

    As a practical example; If I leave my old bicycle on the porch, it has a specific likelihood based on risk:reward of being stolen. If I leave a few thousand dollars in the bank vault, the risk:reward is a similar proposition. If I leave a couple grand on my porch, the consequences are fairly obvious.

    Nobody is breaking into the goddamned vault to steal your shitty bike.

  17. #93
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    I am saying that your machine shop data is like fancy race bike locked in a shed using standard security practices. Getting into auto desk would be like pulling a fleet of transport trucks into warehouse full of shitty bikes and porches. Most of the data is going to be shitty bikes that don't matter but some files are going to be valuable as porches to the owners of the information but only the value of race bike on the open market. The value will not be from stealing it, but burning the warehouse to the ground with put options on the autodesk stock.

    Most cyber criminals are looking for a bigger payout then a bike in a shed. I am thinking a properly updated recent generation router, name brand security software and logic when it comes to the internet will make your exposure on the internet, so unbalanced in the cost vs benefit equation. You have staff downloading questionable shit from questionable sources then maybe you can have some profound fear. Using logic will defeat most keyloggers and other such intrusion techniques. With a simple cheap backup solution, 2 TB backup solution can be had for the cost of a box of inserts.

  18. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by nofxz View Post
    I am saying that your machine shop data is like fancy race bike locked in a shed using standard security practices. Getting into auto desk would be like pulling a fleet of transport trucks into warehouse full of shitty bikes and porches. Most of the data is going to be shitty bikes that don't matter but some files are going to be valuable as porches to the owners of the information but only the value of race bike on the open market. The value will not be from stealing it, but burning the warehouse to the ground with put options on the autodesk stock.

    Most cyber criminals are looking for a bigger payout then a bike in a shed. I am thinking a properly updated recent generation router, name brand security software and logic when it comes to the internet will make your exposure on the internet, so unbalanced in the cost vs benefit equation. You have staff downloading questionable shit from questionable sources then maybe you can have some profound fear. Using logic will defeat most keyloggers and other such intrusion techniques. With a simple cheap backup solution, 2 TB backup solution can be had for the cost of a box of inserts.

    I agree, I always get a chuckle many people thinking that the value of hacking and spreading malware and virus is in the files they get thru hacking. The average file is useless. There are other reasons to hack and disrupt the internet. Much of it is just for fun. Ransomware has realized that most info is more valuable to the user and goes directly at them to get money vs trying to sell the info. I always wonder if someone would hack in some day and not steal a thing but change all the work offsets in the tool library to see how many machines they could crash.

    The motivation is not always for financial gain.

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    If you wanted to steal data from the average machine job shop I think the customer list and pricing info would hold the biggest reward.
    This is the end I protect, not so much cad or cam files as you don't have the same machines as me and the customer will give you the cad data.
    Why would you even want another persons toolpaths or part programs?
    Many shops have wireless networks left on all night long and are not monitoring access attempts.
    I can program anything on my machines, your customer and pricing to them is something I do not have.

    Yes a lot of bad, crash the system stuff is not for financial gain but more to see if you can do it as you are learning this stuff.
    When in school we used to try to force the CDC into "extended core recovery". Years later I would work with the guy on the other end trying to keep the machine up.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by csharp View Post
    I agree, I always get a chuckle many people thinking that the value of hacking and spreading malware and virus is in the files they get thru hacking. The average file is useless. There are other reasons to hack and disrupt the internet. Much of it is just for fun. Ransomware has realized that most info is more valuable to the user and goes directly at them to get money vs trying to sell the info. I always wonder if someone would hack in some day and not steal a thing but change all the work offsets in the tool library to see how many machines they could crash.

    The motivation is not always for financial gain.
    The means of extracting value have nothing to do with the value of the data, nor with the work entailed in gaining access.

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    Steering the ship back on course.....I was curious if any Mstr. Cam users have used the Solidworks integrated M.C. option? Is it same functionality as the full version, or is it limited and if so how? Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Makin' N Bakin' View Post
    Steering the ship back on course.....I was curious if any Mstr. Cam users have used the Solidworks integrated M.C. option? Is it same functionality as the full version, or is it limited and if so how? Thanks!
    I believe it's the Mastercam addon for Solidworks. Not the other way around. And I'm 99% certain that the Mastecam addon is limited inside of SW.

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