Thoughts on VisualCAM?

I got VisualCAM from MECSoft a couple of years ago when I first got my Journeyman 325, thinking I'd need some decent CAM software to make good use of it.

Turns out I can do most of what I need to do on a daily basis from the control using conversational programming, so learning VisualCAM hasn't been a high priority.

I chose it because it had a plug-in for Alibre Design, which I use for my 3D modeling, and it seemed to be the most integrated solution for Alibre. I paid a total of about $1600 for software licenses - and then they discontinued the plug-in, so I'm stuck exporting from Alibre and importing into VisualCAM and manually changing units each time.

Every time I try to get comfortable using VisualCAM, I just end up more frustrated and angry. The program constantly gives useless error messages. "No valid data found. Internal algorithm failure!" is its favorite, and seems to be the catch-all for any problem generating tool paths.

It fails for the stupidest reasons. It will let you define a tool with the flute length equal to the shoulder length and doesn't give any warnings, and in fact that seems to make perfect sense for something like my corncob rougher in a DA180 collet where the flutes extend all the way to the face of the collet nut and then some. It doesn't restrict the entry, though, and it doesn't give a useful error message - it just dies.

There are dozens of warts like this. The program feels clunky and brittle. The way it handles configuring speeds and feeds seems completely counter-intuitive.

I'm a relative novice at machining and I wonder if maybe my expectations are wrong, but on the other hand I've been a professional programmer for most of my career and this stuff would not fly anywhere I've worked.

Just for kicks I installed a trial of Fusion 360 and without reading *any* documentation I was able to generate a working program for my Delta 20 in maybe 10 minutes. Like the Roland Modela CAM program, the only other one I've really used, it shows nice diagrams and tips for each parameter, and the error messages are useful and meaningful. Generating a program in RML for my Roland MDX-20 mill took a few more minutes of playing with coordinate systems, but that was fairly painless too.

Does VisualCAM get better? Is it a decent program once you get through all of the pain of setting up your tool library and conditioning yourself not to do any of the things that make it crash? Or is it really as bad as it seems? If I hadn't already sunk so much money into it I'd drop it in a heartbeat. They want $300/year for a maintenance subscription and $400 for upgrades. For $300/year I could just get Fusion 360.

Scott

When I first got my CNC router I got Visualmill for solidworks. 99% of my cam work is 3d milling on the router. I used the Visualmill for about 2-3 months full time and was never really happy with it. I did only have the basic version so did not have things like pencil milling and rest machining but the more expensive version would not have solved a lot of the other issues I had with it.

I tried HSMworks for a month and even though I could not really afford it at the time there was no way I was going back to Visualmill. One of the things that I remember jumping out right away with the change was the drop down menu giving me different options at to where cutting height constraints were measured from. Visualmill you just had to know where you were cutting from based on the type of toolpath and then do the math to figure out what to set your cutting height constraints at. It seems to me that that 2d toolpaths were measured from a different place than 2d but you just had to know that.

car2 said:

You sort of have to "embrace the suck" of whatever engineering software you choose, and this is not a function of cost, in fact the more expensive, the worse they seem to be

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I've seen that, and to some extent I understand it. I certainly hear it enough from my CATIA and Mentor Graphics using friends. It says something about the company's culture, though, when so many things go unfixed that aren't complex problems.

My #1 indicator that the makers of the program don't use parts of it routinely themselves is the lack of proper tab ordering. When entering new tools in VisualCAM 2016, you can't tab between text fields. You have to use the mouse to move between adjacent fields. When I have to enter 400 fields of data to record my tool library, this is really annoying. It would take a programmer literally about 5 minutes to fix.

According to support, it absolutely will never work if the flute length is equal to the shoulder length. They know this, and will spend time dealing with support questions because of it, but they haven't added a constraint or a warning or even a meaningful error message. A warning would again take no more than 5 minutes.

I put those problems in a different category than the general ease-of-use issues. Making a complex system easy to use is really hard. I haven't complained about other things that are bugging me because I haven't spent enough time with it to figure out if there's a way around it or if I just don't understand why it works the way it does.

I can't find any way to make the simulation run slow enough to see, for example, other than to step through it. On the slowest setting it's all done in an instant.

The feeds and speeds setup is baffling, too. As far as I can tell, one set of feeds and speeds is stored for each tool in your tool library. If you change materials, you have to edit the tool. The 'load from file' thing has been inconsistent for me and sometimes loads weird values, or switches between carbide and HSS inexplicably. But I don't get why it works that way at all. In Modela, your tool library stores feeds and speeds for each combination of tool and material. If you change materials, it updates your settings automatically.

I think maybe I just chose the wrong software package for my needs. I'm not a full-time machinist. I don't do a lot of complex jobs where the overhead of setting up the tool library for each job is negligible. I do a lot of prototyping and one-off projects where I want to import a CAD model, throw a chunk of Delrin or 6061 aluminum in the machine, and select tools from the 30-40 I have loaded in tool holders and calibrated on the machine without a bunch of redundant data entry.

Pattnmaker said:

One of the things that I remember jumping out right away with the change was the drop down menu giving me different options at to where cutting height constraints were measured from. Visualmill you just had to know where you were cutting from based on the type of toolpath and then do the math to figure out what to set your cutting height constraints at.

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That's something I'm liking about Fusion 360 so far. Modela Player will show you a diagram for each height parameter, which is nice. Fusion 360 does that, and it also shows planes on your model to represent the top, bottom, retract, and clearance heights.

My success with Fusion 360 has got me interested in working on my setup again. I think my next task is going to be to set up a tiny touch screen PC on the Tree mill to do DNC functions. The Roland mill is within arm's reach of my main workstation, but the Tree is 20 yards away at the far end of the high bay and it's giving me a little more exercise than I'd like.

We just bought a seat of RhinoCAM (VisualCAM that runs in Rhino). I can't say that I share your experience. I have no major complaints. I will say that I've tried demos in the past and did find that it crashed regularly. But RhinoCAM 2017 seems to be much more refined than in the past. I don't have time to go through each of your points, but I will touch on a couple. Tool library creation can be accomplished by populating a spreadsheet and importing that into the program. Then you can save it as a "knowledge base". The speeds and feed calculator does lack a couple of important elements, but we ascertain our speeds and feeds using Gwizard anyway, so those values just get input into the spreadsheet when initially setting up the library. Any changes later seem pretty easy to make by just re-saving the tool. That doesn't seem like a problem to me. As for tabbing between fields, yes, it does that in 2017..
I don't know about the issue with flute length equal to the shoulder length. I didn't set the libraries up that way.

With regard to the simulation running slow, that's easily done by changing a parameter in the options. It's explained right in the help file, at least for 2017 it is. I can't speak for your version. Maybe it wasn't mentioned?

As for differing materials, why wouldn't you just make a library for each? We have one for aluminum, mild steel and tool steel. This isn't unique to RhinoCAM. We've had this for over 20 years with WorkNC, and for that last 10 years with madCAM. Any materials that differ from the above (nylon, renboard, acrylic, etc) just become slight deviations on the closest applicable tool library. Maybe there is a better way, but that's worked for us for a very long time.

Anyway, I would suggest that if Fusion 360 suits your needs then make the change. No point continuing with something that isn't working for you, regardless of whether it's the program or your lack of experience with it that's the root cause.

Dan

I've been using "Visual Mill" since it was Alibre CAM. Loved it's integration with Alibre CAD and then GeoMagic Design CAD. Now I have to use Geomagic Design CAD and Visual Mill CAM. It adds an extra step (pun intended). I agree that the simulation is way too fast. No changes in the options will slow it down enough. I'm running Win10/64 if that makes a difference. Seemed a lot slower in Win7/32. Also, the VisualCAM HELP windows use the old "Windows Help" format that Win10 no longer supports. All images are lost. But, I see this in a lot of programs that have not updated their Help file formats.

Ken

I think I may buy a seat. You are welcome to talk me out of it.

Granted, I have not worked with it yet in depth, but I like their tool library better than Fusion HSM. They seem to be a simple .csv. I have come to detest the Fusion360 HSM library. It is not that much data, much of it is standard. There is absolutely no reason to make it complicated/encrypted.

The 3D paths/selection sets seems to actually work. Fusion is extremely buggy. The selection sets do not follow the demos. The demos, however, are in Solidworks and Inventor, not Fusion 360.

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I'm not going to try to talk you out of it, but definitely play around with the demo a bit before you make your decision.

Tools are stored in their proprietary .vkb knowledge base format, but it does support a legacy .csv format that you could import. It looks like this:

Version: 5.000000,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
ToolType,Name,Type,Holder Diameter,Holder Length,Shank Diameter,Diameter,Corner Radius,Thread Pitch,Taper Angle,Tip Angle,Tip Length,Tip Diameter,Flute Length,Total Length,Tool #,Adjust Reg,CutCom Reg,Z Offset,Direction,# of Flutes,Material,Inserts,Insert Width,Coolant,Comments
MILL,.375 4FL ( 2.550 Loc ),FLAT,1.5,1,0,0.375,0,0,0,0,0,0,2.55,4.23,0,0,0,0,CW,4,Carbide,NO,0,NONE,
MILL,.375 4FL ( 1.150 Loc ),FLAT,1.5,1,0,0.375,0,0,0,0,0,0,1.15,3.05,0,0,0,0,CW,4,Carbide,NO,0,NONE,

I don't know if I'd consider it 'extremely buggy' but it's at least frustratingly buggy to me, and it's full of poorly-worded messages and useless errors. Anything that goes wrong in tool path generation, regardless of whether it's your cutting parameters or a problem with a tool definition, just gives you "Could not find valid data. Internal algorithm failure."

By poorly-worded messages I mean things like when you save edits to an existing tool it says "Editing existing tool!" like a warning or something, but the only option is to click OK. It's just a notification that it's saving, but it doesn't do anything like that for new tools and someone really liked to put exclamation points in places they shouldn't be.

Another pointlessly frustrating 'feature': If you click 'preview tool' to check tool holder clearance or something, you get exactly one view. Trying to pan or zoom makes the rendering go away. If you're using a 3D mouse, the tiniest nudge will make the tool disappear. It's a feature that technically works but is so limited that it's hardly worth using. Fusion 360, on the other hand, gives me a nicely-labeled rendering that I can orbit around and check out from any angle.

Maybe it'll work for you - just be prepared for a bit of pain getting there.

madsci said:

Tools are stored in their proprietary .vkb knowledge base format, but it does support a legacy .csv format that you could import.

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That is concerning. This is the same crap Fusion pulled with their tool DB. The ones in Solidworks were XML. I call it taking data hostage.

You can bring the .csv into a spreadsheet and easily modify it.

I like the simulation in VC/SW much better than F360. I love the fact that u can pick on the path and see the tool in F360. This, however, is not really needed with better graphics. But I still like it!

Willysnowman said:

That is concerning. This is the same crap Fusion pulled with their tool DB. The ones in Solidworks were XML. I call it taking data hostage.
View attachment 192264

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Right now I have to duplicate every tool in GWizard, VisualCam, and the spreadsheet I use to actually keep track of the tools. It's a pain, but I've only got 40 tools in tool holders so it hasn't been worth writing a script to export to the required CSV formats, convert units, and so on.

I've never been able to get anything useful out of VisualCam's simulation unless I run it one step at a time. It simply won't slow down to a pace you can watch.

I can only speak to the latest version, but you can definitely slow it down to a crawl if you wish. Its under the preferences, then simulation. Just lower the value in the field shown below.

Dan B said:

I can only speak to the latest version, but you can definitely slow it down to a crawl if you wish. Its under the preferences, then simulation. Just lower the value in the field shown below.

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Yeah. You can slow it down to the point it's painful to watch. I find slowing it down helps tremendously with monitoring the tool path. I've been using the standalone VisualCAM for a several months now and one of the issues I keep running into is that it likes to plunge tools even if they aren't supposed to be plunged... I can't find any option to prevent that so I end up having to draw a box for the control geometry that's oversized to fool the system. I then slow the simulation down and watch the tool like a hawk to be sure nothing crashes. Anybody know of a better way?

I have tried many different settings in that form in the past, but with no luck. So just now I again tried to set the Maximum Display Interval to "0.1". In the past, I would swear that it wouldn't take any entry smaller than "1". Now, I can run the simulations painfully slooooooow too. Thanks letting me know that it could be done.

Ken

Dan B said:

I can only speak to the latest version, but you can definitely slow it down to a crawl if you wish. Its under the preferences, then simulation. Just lower the value in the field shown below.

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I am using 2017. I can run it excruciatingly slow or in a flash. I have not figured out the right throttle control as of yet, but it seems to have the right capabilities.

Fusion has click on the toolpath and see the tool at that point, stop on collision detection, collisions shown in the path bar, and a way to slide the path backwards and forwards. VC has much better graphics. It does not have the above features, but I can see a collision very easily because the graphics are so much better. I really like the compare feature in VC! These just seem to be two different approaches to getting the same thing.

I like to leave my simulation interval at .1 When checking tool path I can keep the slide control down and it is slow enough to catch issues but in the fastest position it moves along rapidly enough that Im aren't waiting around for hours...

Addison said:

I've been using the standalone VisualCAM for a several months now and one of the issues I keep running into is that it likes to plunge tools even if they aren't supposed to be plunged... I can't find any option to prevent that so I end up having to draw a box for the control geometry that's oversized to fool the system. I then slow the simulation down and watch the tool like a hawk to be sure nothing crashes. Anybody know of a better way?

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Any luck on their forum or thru support on this issue? The support seems to be pretty responsive, but I have yet to hand over my money.

I am almost tempted to buy Mastercam for the knowledge on the forums. I just can't seem to pick up the program fast enough. It seems to fight me.

I would contact support directly on the plunge issue. Uday is pretty responsive and will work with you to solve this problem, perhaps even with a new update. I found a bug when creating tool libraries, and it is already fixed with a new patch.

Dan

The support for VisualCAM is great! I'm about on a first name basis with Uday by now... I recently had an issue with a drill cycle and by the end of an hour I had an updated version that fixed the problem. If you don't have the support I would highly recommend getting it because I have learned more by just watching Uday fix my problems then trying to figure them out myself. In the end the shop makes more money because I spend less time sitting in front of a computer and more in front of a machine. Unfortunately the only fix for plunging has been workarounds. Hopefully at some point there will be an update with a box I can check that says, "Do not plunge."

Dan and Addison,

When did you get the "patches"? The last I got was the 2017 version it came out in December 2016.
I have VisualCAD 2017 ver. 6.0.0.348 and VisualCAM 2017 ver. 11.0.0.15

Ken

Ken

I don't know about VisualCAD(I use Geomagic for my CAD software) but I was recently updated to version 11.0.0.74 with VisualCAM because of the drilling cycle issues. I contacted MecSoft's customer support and they sent me an email with a download link for the latest version. There's probably a way to get it from the website as well but I've always gotten my updates via email from Uday or Don at customer service.