Will Autodesk cheap Fusion subscription whoring hurt other CAM companies? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by csharp View Post
    Not sure where you to those numbers but Subscription is $2470 as posted on their website, My last maintenance bill was $1195 direct from Autodesk and I did not pay anywhere near $7500.

    I have been programming and machining for almost 20years. I can tell you software has not come all that far. CAM software is pretty mature at this point. Aside from 3d adaptive and the UI/UX, the HSM products trail the industry in pretty much every area, turning, 4th axis, 5th axis etc.....
    I only saw the $2470 price for 3+2. For full 5 axis it was $3700 a year. I don't know where the $2200 figure came from. Last year's price?

    So the price went from $2200 to $2470 - a 12% increase. How often does that happen I wonder over 10 years? Was that factored into the analysis above? It doesn't look like it.

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    As a guy with only two machines, a lathe and mill, and just starting out in CNC, Fusion 360 seems like the perfect fit...but.

    Sadly as someone who grew up in silicon valley and is in his late 40's so has seen every software trick in the book (hell I used to ride my bmx bike around Larry Ellison's Ferrari next to my middle school because he bulldozed our track to build his office there in the 80's.

    And every time I want to commit to Fusion 360 I see that cloud based file storage. Maybe I am reading the description wrong? The thought of someone else with a COMPLETELY different set of motivations and priorities having my intellectual property held hostage..forever, sends chills down my spine.

    You don't pay, we deny you access to your work. If something happens to us, you probably don't get access to your work. I can't imagine investing tons of R&D time and effort into a design to find I can't get at it anymore without paying them their tithe...again, forever.

    Hostageware is not for the faint of heart. My family owns a very high end architecture company. We have had the aforementioned Capt. Outrageous and have now many other tech stars and billionaires as clients. They often get bored of a layout after 3-5 years and come back and want to spend 7 figures again to make it all new. We go back to our drawings, yes actual paper, and start from the bottom up. I can't imagine having all that intellectual property held by someone else who does NOT have my best interests in mind, only my money.

    But everyone has different needs so what freaks me out might be no big deal to other. I am not that trusting, I have been around these people too long. I keep hoping I am reading it wrong and there is a way to save your Fusion360 files and at least read them if not fully use them maybe years after moving on from Fusion360 as a development tool.

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  4. #43
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    Change is inevitable.

    I for one am glad AutoDesk is shaking up the current CAD/CAM business model.

    Really folks, who in their right mind if they have the capability to use high-end CAM like Mastercam, needs some "reseller" to come by and show a demo or two...all so the bastard and his middleman company can make 30%?

    I think the "reseller" model for software is ridiculous.

    The family that owns MasterCam is rich beyond belief. Basically they wrote the underpinnings of the software 30 years ago, and have a few high-paid software gurus on staff to work on the "updates". So, what do they actually have in a copy of the software, $500?

    The fact that CAD/CAM is so powerful and enables machining companies to make lots of money with it, that's why they can charge 7-figures!

    AutoDesk has figured out they can get more market share, and eventually lead the industry to a new direction - one of more value for the money. Just because I make money with the tool you sell doesn't mean I should pay 10 times or more what it's actually worth.

    Think about the Fusion360 model. If they can get 10,000 users, at $300 per year average subscription cost, that's $3 million per year right there. That pays the salaries of a dozen or so software engineers, a support staff, etc. and still leaves profit for the shareholders. And each new subscription after that is pure profit.

    Think about all the other software we use today: Facebook, Ebay, smartphone apps, etc. We don't own none of it, we just use it. They update it occasionally, and of course make their money on ads and crap.

    Just look at how Amazon is shaking up decades-old business models: retail, hardware, toys, groceries, etc. And now they're getting ready to take on the big 3 auto parts companies, as they have colluded to keep parts prices high for too long. Hurray for the consumer I say!

    And the cloud computing model is upon us gentleman, might as well adapt and forge ahead. Statistically your data is safer in a huge companie's cloud network, than in your PC at work or home.

    The possibility that AutoDesk would kill Fusion is very, very slim. Why would they? It's a CASH COW.

    Hurray Autodesk I say!

    ToolCat

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  6. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Change is inevitable.

    I for one am glad AutoDesk is shaking up the current CAD/CAM business model.

    Really folks, who in their right mind if they have the capability to use high-end CAM like Mastercam, needs some "reseller" to come by and show a demo or two...all so the bastard and his middleman company can make 30%?

    I think the "reseller" model for software is ridiculous.

    The family that owns MasterCam is rich beyond belief. Basically they wrote the underpinnings of the software 30 years ago, and have a few high-paid software gurus on staff to work on the "updates". So, what do they actually have in a copy of the software, $500?

    The fact that CAD/CAM is so powerful and enables machining companies to make lots of money with it, that's why they can charge 7-figures!

    AutoDesk has figured out they can get more market share, and eventually lead the industry to a new direction - one of more value for the money. Just because I make money with the tool you sell doesn't mean I should pay 10 times or more what it's actually worth.

    Think about the Fusion360 model. If they can get 10,000 users, at $300 per year average subscription cost, that's $3 million per year right there. That pays the salaries of a dozen or so software engineers, a support staff, etc. and still leaves profit for the shareholders. And each new subscription after that is pure profit.

    Think about all the other software we use today: Facebook, Ebay, smartphone apps, etc. We don't own none of it, we just use it. They update it occasionally, and of course make their money on ads and crap.

    Just look at how Amazon is shaking up decades-old business models: retail, hardware, toys, groceries, etc. And now they're getting ready to take on the big 3 auto parts companies, as they have colluded to keep parts prices high for too long. Hurray for the consumer I say!

    And the cloud computing model is upon us gentleman, might as well adapt and forge ahead. Statistically your data is safer in a huge companie's cloud network, than in your PC at work or home.

    The possibility that AutoDesk would kill Fusion is very, very slim. Why would they? It's a CASH COW.

    Hurray Autodesk I say!

    ToolCat
    I totally get what you say, but you missed my point entirely. I don't make a living with Facebook or Amazon. Amazon sells a product or service, I buy it, done.

    Facebook provides a service, if I don't want that service anymore, I walk away. It's a utility like the power company. Could you imagine your power company demanding to own everything you did with the power they supplied? Insanity.

    eBay same way, I don't use it it just sits there, it doesn't charge me to come back and use the service again and it certainly doesn't own anything of mine. It's a service.

    Since no on contradicted what I said about them holding your design files hostage forever unless you pay them I have to assume it's true. I can not imagine a world where I would be happy to have someone else get to "own" the product of my time and effort and work forever.

    This isn't the music industry where you give up the rights to ownership of the fruits of your own talent just for a chance to sit at the table. If I create something, I expect to be able own it. I pay them for the right to use their "tools" to make my design. They don't earn the rights for a cut of my earnings forever for selling me those tools.

    Again, assuming the Fusion360 model is as stated, and you DON'T own and have unfettered access in perpetuity to your own creations. If this is not the case than that's great. Is so then you are being used like a video game user, they can call it World of CadCam or something. But my creations around my livelihood is not a game.

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    So how long will it be until some agressive CEO decides you have to keep your subscription up continuously, or else you have to pay all back subscription fees to regain access to your data?

    That's similar to my biggest complaint with the current model, where you can't opt out of maintenance without paying back unpaid fees to get back on. Can't even buy a new seat to avoid them. Once someone has been burned this way, they'll be real leary of giving a software company any unnecessary control

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxian View Post

    Since no on contradicted what I said about them holding your design files hostage forever unless you pay them I have to assume it's true. I can not imagine a world where I would be happy to have someone else get to "own" the product of my time and effort and work forever.

    This isn't the music industry where you give up the rights to ownership of the fruits of your own talent just for a chance to sit at the table. If I create something, I expect to be able own it. I pay them for the right to use their "tools" to make my design. They don't earn the rights for a cut of my earnings forever for selling me those tools.

    Again, assuming the Fusion360 model is as stated, and you DON'T own and have unfettered access in perpetuity to your own creations. If this is not the case than that's great. Is so then you are being used like a video game user, they can call it World of CadCam or something. But my creations around my livelihood is not a game.
    Jaxian, where did you hear or learn that any of that was the case, just general rumors or a specific site? This has been brought up in many threads before.

    Autodesk legal notice - take note of section 2.1: Autodesk - Legal Notices & Trademarks - Autodesk 36 Terms of Service (updated. 3/213)
    2.1 Your Content is Yours. You maintain ownership of and responsibility for Your Content
    You can work in offline mode and save your files locally. If your subscription ends, you can still view your files via A360 and export the CAD data into a neutral file format like STEP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffj View Post
    Jaxian, where did you hear or learn that any of that was the case, just general rumors or a specific site? This has been brought up in many threads before.

    Autodesk legal notice - take note of section 2.1: Autodesk - Legal Notices & Trademarks - Autodesk 36 Terms of Service (updated. 3/213)


    You can work in offline mode and save your files locally. If your subscription ends, you can still view your files via A360 and export the CAD data into a neutral file format like STEP.
    I have only used Fusion360 for about 4 months now and everything seemed to be saved elsewhere. I hear people making a big deal about them extending the period you could still access your files if you didn't log in. But there was still an end date where you couldn't get at your stuff if you didn't log in.

    I assume to log in you actually have to have an active account. That seems like common sense. So the reasoning I have seen on here is: No access to internet, no live account, no way to get to your work anymore as it isn't on your local drive. My account certainly seems to always give the impression it is going elsewhere to get files.

    If there is in fact a way to save my files locally, open my files locally with a stand alone program not needing to login to Fusion360, then use those files in other pieces of software I would love to look into it.

    It does not seem to be the default settings though. Everything is touted as 'web based'. Is there some type of instructions on how to use Fusion360 like it was client resident as far as file saving goes? Is this just a work around for now that can be sealed off or is it a permanent feature?

    Do you have to be in offline mode to save files locally?

    Is the viewer like a .pdf read only (not sure what A360 means)?

    If I start up Fusion360 after letting my subscription lapse will it let me run it in offline mode, or run at all?

    If not how do I export those files into a neutral file format from the Fusion360 format?

    If there is a established, permanent method of always being able to access and use the files I create in Fusion360 regardless of my subscription status or use of an internet connection this is a well hidden feature I would love to hear more about.

    As mentioned earlier this is my one big reservation about using Fusion360. I assume they will fix the long list of performance issues people talk about on here as time goes on so I am not even really worried about that. Looking forward to hearing the procedure to make my Fusion360 files future proof. Thanks for the information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Just look at how Amazon is shaking up decades-old business models: retail, hardware, toys, groceries, etc. And now they're getting ready to take on the big 3 auto parts companies, as they have colluded to keep parts prices high for too long. Hurray for the consumer I say!
    You ever seen the movie Idiocracy? You should probably look into it, because that is the future you are hooting and hollering for. Amazon is destroying millions of small businesses, because they can afford to have their lawyers make new laws that smaller businesses cannot pony up the money to handle, thus driving them out of business.

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    If lawyers start making laws we're all in serious trouble!!

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    I just got Fusion 360 and used an older post editor I had to send to my cnc while modifying a generic post and save some money but dang...took ALONG time.

    Anyways I don't like the cloud at all...and like others said don't trust it either. But most of my files I can draw simply enough again once I make a print or save it as a .dxf and extrude later. (one software you can't even make a basic print..wtf?)

    Anyways, if they allowed a user to save easily on local hard drive in numerous format I would HAPPILY pay closer to a couple grand one time thing. So no subscription really except if you want for the "help".

    This software is everything I wanted it to be!! Seriously...you can choose to have a grid, you can snap on that grip, you can have it change in size increments auto while scrolling, you can select lines easier and quicker to toothpath easier. Some software tries to guess for you and just a headache while trying to select. I like that you can do trick with the mouse or just hit a button on the keyboard ("C" for circle) to draw faster! Time is money baby each time I have to click a tab or type something in takes time. It takes a little getting used to ...no parallel line feature like in Mastercam...however it has offset line/copy.

    So far I like it ALOT. I hope they are not dumb enough to try and take advantage of us. Keep us machinists happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Could also be that Autodesk sees a large entry level market; hobbyists, Tormach owners, part-time prototype and maintenance shops etc. If so, they can amortize development costs over a much larger base. The corollary is they won't spend the time to develop the advanced features (5 axis, job management, etc.) sophisticated shops need.

    Another factor is that Autodesk wants to level out its revenue stream and reduce maintenance costs through annual pricing and cloud-based pricing. Not necesarlly in the interest of PM type users, but to the extent their 3D CAM stuff promotes their annual/cloud strategy on the design side they could pretty much (and maybe are) subsidize the limited CAM development.

    I find it hard to complain about cheap prices. Kind of like "free love" back in the 60's and 70's -- these may be the good old days. Better yet, even if Autodesk manages to gain dominant share and then raise prices, the barriers to entry of new competitors (many even in places like China and Russia) are low enough to keep them in check.

    One might add that the whole CAM software field is probably ripe for disruption; with a more direct route from model to part. Despite the overlay of graphical user interfaces for decades now, the underlying software technology to drive CNC machines hasn't changed much.

    Biggest threat to Autodesk users, IMO, is the combination of Carl Bass' departure and the larger stakes held by "activist" shareholders who could care less about the product.
    I agree about the increased market size - you could have 1000 hobbyists in a county, vs. 20 machine shops using their CNC router/lathe/mill to make little niche parts - if all 1000 pay $300 vs. 20 paying $25,000 the end result isn't that far apart - plus they get that $300 EVERY year.

    The bit where that comes unstuck is that currently Fusion is FREE to anyone not turning over $100k. So it knocks that arguement out the water - which to me implies a more likely approach is pull in the hobby/one man band types, get them hooked, then charged them $300-$500 safe in the knowledge there are no products anywhere near that price point they can jump to, and all their files are stored in autodesks cloud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangle_kt View Post
    get them hooked, then charged them $300-$500 safe in the knowledge there are no products anywhere near that price point they can jump to, and all their files are stored in autodesks cloud.
    How did that work for photobucket?

    Remember solidworks became extremely popular as it was pirated so much, thus people learned it, and with so many people knowing how to use Solidworks it became popular with the paying crowd.

    Sometimedown the track I expect Autodesk will find some beancounter that will say "Hey lets charge for this free product", then that will be the end of Fusion360.

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    Quote Originally Posted by irobotix View Post
    I am seriously evaluating others as stated in another post... but as I think about it - is Autodesk going to wreck the business model of other perpetual CAM s/w companies by whoring their Fusion HSM packages so cheap w/ no up-front cost? I am actually nervous to purchase another integrated CAM package because of this. I really have gotten to like SolidCAM over the past few days of my evaluation - it's been very easy for me to jump from HSMWorks to SolidCAM and make sense of it quickly.... but - another 5-digit investment into a CAM package that may get damaged because of what Autodesk is doing...

    Are these valid concerns? I am very gun shy now with purchasing another CAM software because of what has happened to me in the past with HSMWorks.
    Autodesk is not best in class by any means so IMO should only be a slight concern for users of mid-range software. Beside, perhaps more software companies will move to or towards a similar pricing structure as Autodesk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangle_kt View Post
    The bit where that comes unstuck is that currently Fusion is FREE to anyone not turning over $100k. So it knocks that arguement out the water - which to me implies a more likely approach is pull in the hobby/one man band types, get them hooked, then charged them $300-$500 safe in the knowledge there are no products anywhere near that price point they can jump to, and all their files are stored in autodesks cloud.
    I think it actually makes a lot of sense to give the product away to students, small shops, hobby guys, tinkerers, etc., because a lot of shops currently doing way over $100k in revenue started out as a guy in his garage with a ProtoTrak. If those guys can legitimately get a copy of real, capable, fully integrated CAD/CAM software for free, why would they bother with anything else? (i.e. the always broken pirated versions of SolidWorks and MasterCAM.) Additionally, there's a huge support network to learn the software (big, for new folks) it is consistently updated and improved, and is convenient in a lot of ways the traditional programs aren't (which are the things many of us balk at.)

    So you get all these guys who wind up learning Fusion because it makes a ton of sense for them to use it, and if (and it's a big 'if') their business ever takes off, they're already using Fusion when it comes time to expand. Because how many of you guys want to drop the CAD/CAM you already know front-to-back to learn a new system? How many of you would do it to spend an extra couple of grand per year, per seat? How long would it take you to change everything over? How many weeks or months would it take to get as fast with the new system as you are with the current one?

    As for 'giving it away' - think of it as two things: 1. Free Beta Testing for the software. 2. Advertising cost. They were already going to develop the software; they're just playing the long game in trying to make them the only CAD/CAM software anyone is learning going forward.

    Or they're a big, evil mega-corp out to screw everybody and everything. Personally, if it was my company, I'd be doing the first option (long-game, volume oriented) because it will make more money than the second option (evil hostage taking.) But that's just me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan B View Post
    If lawyers start making laws we're all in serious trouble!!
    Great post Dan! Glad to see you addressed my concerns.

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    I didn't see the movie you referred to, sorry. I just know that lawyers don't make the laws. Substituting lobbyists for lawyers would probably be closer to the truth.


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