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14x36 Cincinnati OD Grinder info

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Mar 20, 2014
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Michigan
Can someone help with a operator/service manual for this OD grinder & a weight too? I've been looking online and I think it weighs about 8000lbs. I don't have any room/use for either of them but it looks like I'll be taking them. I'm breaking my #1 rule about buying machines I can't move with my fork truck but it's being delivered for free and they're cheap. The OD grinder is tight, .0015 backlash on the table in/out feed screw, the spindle is smooth and everything works like it should. The surface grinder is clapped out and will be headed to the machine shop in the sky.
 

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If the spindle is good the surface grinder is worth saving IMHO.
I got power to to the surface grinder and its smooth as can be. Unfortunately, I let the smoke out of the spindle starter coil. I have to figure out how to wire the transformer for 110v. The transformer was wired 440v. I hate electrical work but I'm about to get a crash course.
 
I pushed the grinder with the fork truck about 200' to get in to my shop. The wheels I bought from CL fell apart, one complete blow out and 2 flats. They're caster concepts 3" wide X 6" dia wheels, supposedly rated for 2000lbs/wheel.

I started up the grinder, it sounds really good. I have to top off the fluids, clean top/bottom, fix a busted oil level lens & make a few other adjustments. I need an operators/service manual too. I'm not familiar with some of he controls.
Here's a few pictures of the ways. No scratches, nic's, dings or dents. Surprising for a machine from 1958. I pulled off the way covers to make sure there wasn't any grit on them before I moved the table.
 

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I have the "1958 Service Manual and Parts List Catalog" for the "Cincinatti Filmatic 12", 14", and 18" Hydraulic Universal Grinding Machines Model LL" for machines whose serial number begins with either "2U" or "3U".

I did a lot of maintenance on a 14" by 72" grinder with serial number 3U4F5K-6.

The manual is something I paid for so not parting with it but if you have questions I may have answers.
There is a filter/screen in the tank. It can clog as the tank becomes a reservoir for sludge, water, and the oil.
There are a number of solenoids that could fail due to age. An easy fix when you know the symptoms of fault. They are design specific in that a replacement solenoid is a perfect fit if the correct part is purchased.

Did you get the steady rests?
The footstock wears at the front and drops the center. Consider a teardown as the adjustment for the dead center pressure gets gummy and the bore grabs. You need a clean action when applying the dead center to the part.

Really, you have no need for this grinder?

John
 
The footstock wears at the front and drops the center

The '47 B&S #4 14" X 60" is so afflicted.

So far, I have laboriously placed feeler stock to raise it every time I move it.

Maybe the next owner will fix it.:D
 
Thanks John. It looks like your parts book covers my machine, 14"x36"--- 3U4D5F-4. In the next couple of weeks I'll get a chance to start cleaning it up. There's about .002 backlash on the spindle in/out feed. The table moves good with lots of oil to the ways, the auto head turns on/off when it should. I'm not sure how to use the Tarry left/right and how to set the auto feed in/out. Most of my work is tractor parts for myself. As cool as it is to have, I have no use for this machine. If nobody wants it after I get it all cleaned up, I'll try to find some work for it.
It came with a 3J sjogren collet closer, a pile collets, centers, ID attachment, all the guards, extra filters, extra wheels and a few other things.
 
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Maybe that is TARRY? Means to pause a bit before going the other way

Thanks John, perfect. The TARRY knobs are really tight and don't want to turn or pull in/out so its hard to tell what they do. I'm baby sitting a press line today so I have lots of time to hunt for a manual. I emailed the Cincinnati parts department, hopefully I hear something back.
 
emailed the Cincinnati parts department, hopefully I hear something back.

Sticker shock will not even come close when pricing repair parts.

There is a TARRY left and TARRY right valve and as John describes the function it varies the time at end of travel from nil to max allowed.
When the machine and the oil is at operating temperature the valves may be easier to turn. They do not turn 360.
Only a range between CCW and CW.
Likely they are sticky from staying in the same position for a period of time.
Oil capacity Hydraulic, Table/Wheelhead ways is 25 and 5 gallons respectively. Fill to high range limit and change every 12 months.
Oil for both is CMMCo. - No. P 38 given as R&O paraffin base oil Viscosity 145 to 160 S.U.S at 100 degrees F.
I changed the oil, cleaned the tanks/filter and filled with (memory test) 32 AWG Mobil hydraulic oil.
Cleaning the tanks is rather nasty as the two bottom front access covers have to be removed to get out the sludge.
There is an npt plug on the front of one plate but that is not enough to get the slim out.
The fit for the valve body spools are in tenths. Avoid taking the valve body apart.
 
There's about .002 backlash on the spindle in/out feed. The table moves good with lots of oil to the ways, the auto head turns on/off when it should. I'm not sure how to use the Tarry left/right and how to set the auto feed in/out.
That backlash is nothing to worry about.
The wheelhead has a rapid in and out. Determine the travel in when no part is mounted between centers.
This is one way to crash the grinder and I had to teach this to every new operator. The rapid is nice to approach the part but it has to have a safe stop point.
The hand wheel at the left has two settings. Push in or pull out for fine or coarse hand feed table travel.
 
It's been a while but I'm finally getting around to clean this monster up. It's the last machine in my shop that isn't usable. I have the Tarry & pick knobs turning freely but still have some problems left. I found the LL service manual but it won't be here until Monday.

1) When the adjustable table trip hits the table reverse lever, it doesn't flip it all the way and the table slowly starts moving back the other way. The right side trip works great and Tarry works on both left/right sides.
2) The pick isn't working either. The knob turns freely and I can hear the detents but no automatic infeed.
3) spindle site glass is leaking a little bit.
4) ID motor is smoked, the wiring is melted inside and needs a complete overhaul.
5) the coolant pump is stuck.

Jhruska, my machine might be different because the oil tag says it takes 3 different oils and it doesn't have rapids. Extreme Pressure 300-350 SUS for the ways, 145-155 SUS for the hydraulic system & 100-110 Sus for the spindle.

Way Oil 350 SUS = ISO 68 (Is ISO 68 considered an EP oil?)

Hydraulic system Oil 150 SUS = ISO 32

Spindle Oil 100-110 SUS = ISO 22
 
It's been a while but I'm finally getting around to clean this monster up. It's the last machine in my shop that isn't usable. I have the Tarry & pick knobs turning freely but still have some problems left. I found the LL service manual but it won't be here until Monday.

1) When the adjustable table trip hits the table reverse lever, it doesn't flip it all the way and the table slowly starts moving back the other way. The right side trip works great and Tarry works on both left/right sides.
2) The pick isn't working either. The knob turns freely and I can hear the detents but no automatic infeed.
3) spindle site glass is leaking a little bit.
4) ID motor is smoked, the wiring is melted inside and needs a complete overhaul.
5) the coolant pump is stuck.

Jhruska, my machine might be different because the oil tag says it takes 3 different oils and it doesn't have rapids. Extreme Pressure 300-350 SUS for the ways, 145-155 SUS for the hydraulic system & 100-110 Sus for the spindle.

Way Oil 350 SUS = ISO 68 (Is ISO 68 considered an EP oil?)

Hydraulic system Oil 150 SUS = ISO 32

Spindle Oil 100-110 SUS = ISO 22

Way oil, non Vactra, ie; 68 hydraulic oil may have the same viscosity as Vactra but the waxes are stripped out.
The table trips (reversing dogs) left and right get a lot of wear to the point where they no longer contact the reverse lever properly.
That might be the problem.
The coolant tank is pretty deep and holds a lot of swarf along with the coolant. It's a nasty job to clean. Expect to remove buckets of swarf. This might be the pump problem if you are lucky. Before blaming the motor check the connections, switch, ect. I would bring an electrician over from the other side of the shop, not the dark side, and we would 'ring' the connections as a test.
there is a separate pump for the Wheel Head (spindle). If the pressure is not within limits the Wheel head will not start.
Do not toss out the ID parts/motor.
My parts manual is not handy at the moment but I recall a solenoid behind the front cover on the right side. If that solenoid is shot the pick feed will not function. The pick feed is hydraulically controlled and the solenoid is part of the system. The solenoid can be rebuilt with a new coil. The pick feed is a time saver but if it is not working you are the replacement pick feed. Did the machine come with a free standing electrical cabinet?

There is a publication from Cincinnati; publication No. G-674-1
It is for operators of "Cincinnati Filmatic 12" 14" and 18" Universal Grinding Machines (Model LL). Get this if you can. It covers general operating instructions, specs and initial machine set-up and some maintenance and adjustments.

Check the three oil filter cartridges. If you are lucky the name of the manufacturer will be on one of them.
Clean spindle oil is important. Yearly oil change is recommended for the three oils. I thought the retainer for the sight glass is threaded on the O.D and it just screws into place. Could be wrong as this was so many machines ago.
John
 
Thanks John.

I'll hunt down the operators manual. The electrical box is attached to the grinder. I'll flip for all new fluids & filters sometime next week. I was hoping there was going to be a simple adjustment on one of the chrome cylinders for the table trip. The table dog approaches the lever fast, touches the reverse lever but doesn't flip it all the way over. If I barely touch it, it flips over and takes off.

It starts just like you said, push the start button once, spindle hydraulics get to pressure, push again and the spindle starts. I know looks can be deceiving but this machine looks darn near new. All the flaking/scrapping look perfect along with the table.
The PO Filled the coolant tank with bricks.

Andy
 
I have a similar but slightly newer Cinci universal grinder. They are great machines. The Filmatic spindle will be basically as good as new if it never was abused. If you don't have much experience around od grinders I would suggest being very careful. Unlike a surface grinder the wheel is pointed right at you. If something goes wrong you can be in serious trouble real quick. If possible I would find someone who is knowledgeable for a lesson or two. Although a lot of reading and some common sense will get you there. These machines demand respect.

They may have filled the coolant tank with bricks so they did not have to have 50 gallons of coolant in it, much like the old brick in the toilet tank trick. Unlike surface grinding, coolant will pretty much be essential for od grinding. A hot part will expand towards the wheel and will quickly wreck a part. ID grinding without coolant works better because the part moves away from the wheel as it heats. Good luck and have fun. It is amazing the quality of work that can be done on even old grinders like this.
 
Andy,
Machine movements are actuated via solenoids.
That yellow-orange electrical box on the right side in the photo has three or four in there.
In that area near the floor is a pipe for filling the hydraulic oil. That is also where the fill level is checked.
The opening in the casting is the return for the coolant. The strainer basket is missing.
Right Side.jpg
In your other photos the telescoping way covers are not present. Hope you have them.
Some were missing for our machine and the others were rough. Had some made locally to replace the missing.
The covers ride on opposite edges of the machine on little blocks. I made new ones out of AR400.
Bricks in the coolant tank.....the swarf does not settle out and is picked up and passed between the
work and the wheel. The finish will suffer.
Our 14" was longer and it finished large diameter rolls. The face of the grinding wheel was 2".
John
 
I have a similar but slightly newer Cinci universal grinder. They are great machines. The Filmatic spindle will be basically as good as new if it never was abused. If you don't have much experience around od grinders I would suggest being very careful. Unlike a surface grinder the wheel is pointed right at you. If something goes wrong you can be in serious trouble real quick. If possible I would find someone who is knowledgeable for a lesson or two. Although a lot of reading and some common sense will get you there. These machines demand respect.

They may have filled the coolant tank with bricks so they did not have to have 50 gallons of coolant in it, much like the old brick in the toilet tank trick. Unlike surface grinding, coolant will pretty much be essential for od grinding. A hot part will expand towards the wheel and will quickly wreck a part. ID grinding without coolant works better because the part moves away from the wheel as it heats. Good luck and have fun. It is amazing the quality of work that can be done on even old grinders like this.

Not a whole lot of experience with an OD/ID here. I can make it work but not a seasoned operator by any stretch. I've only made a dozen or so parts with one, some bolster axles and a few pins.
 








 
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