Pacemaker 20x48 move

With some effort I lucked out and won a 1948 Pacemaker. It's a big 20x48, and I saved it from a scrapper. Now I need to get it.

I'm told it weighs about 9500. It's 10HP, motor in pedestal

The immediate challenge is to move this machine the 250 miles from the seller and get it into storage. I have a fair bit of experience moving 2 ton machines. This is more.

Unfortunately I don't have room for it, so it looks like it may go into a machinery warehouse. It'd be better if I could find a good shop to park it in.

I have some time to move it - at least until Jan 10 and potentially longer. But it is coming to SE Michigan, so finding a window in the weather is key. I plan to move it on a rented 24' flatbed, with a wood deck. The seller will crane it on to my truck.

I'm not sure how to skid it. At the warehouse it would be unloaded with a large forklift. And there needs to be a clear way for them to move the machine in the future, in case they need access to something else. I am awaiting info on their forklifts.

If it goes into a shop, I'll probably hire a wrecker or rollback to get it off the flatbed. I may need to roll it on pipe across the floor. I do have some poly rollers that should be large enough to fit on 6x6's.

The moving folks at the seller location already had a mishap. It damaged the drip pan near the headstock and bent the lead screw reverse rod. It is a little concerning that they didn't even know to move the carriage. The broken piece and door are with the lathe.

My contact says the loading will involve rolling it outside and then using the truck crane. It will probably be lifted with a fork lift and put on dollies for the roll out. Given the previous incident, I am concerned about that. I may not be present for the rollout. They may not even let me in the building. Now that they know it is not going to scrap, maybe they can be nudged to be more careful, or lift it a specific way. Fwiw, this is a municipal facility, with a definite hierarchy, and possibly some pretty intense union considerations.

So skid questions.. Configuration? How to attach? When to attach? One option is to put it directly on the flat bed, wrap it, secure it, and GTFO. At the warehouse they can fork it on my skid, and I can take my time to attach it, crate it, etc. If it is going into a shop it would be advantageous to place it on to the core members of the skid at the time the truck is loaded, or before they move it outside.

I have read all the Pacemaker threads I could find, and many of the threads on moving large lathes.

Does anyone have dimensions for the pedestals?

Thanks!

I just moved a 14x54 pacemaker from 1949 and it was more like 5000 lbs. Is a 20" really almost twice the weight with less bed length?

Blazemaster said:

I just moved a 14x54 pacemaker from 1949 and it was more like 5000 lbs. Is a 20" really almost twice the weight with less bed length?

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Yes. If you look at the specs on page 37 of bulletin 15, you'll see the differences. For example, the tailstock spindle diameter on the 14" is 2 3/8", and 4 5/8" on the 20".

http://pounceatron.dreamhosters.com/docs/atw/

Blazemaster said:

I just moved a 14x54 pacemaker from 1949 and it was more like 5000 lbs. Is a 20" really almost twice the weight with less bed length?

Click to expand...

Yes, simply because the 14 and 16 are "small" and the (originally) 18 thru 22 are "large" All that was left of the "large" after the war years was the 20 Heavy Duty

Bulletin 16 from the days when all the "larger" were for sale - weights are in latter pages. Thanks to Greg Menke for the scan (Glug types faster)

http://pounceatron.dreamhosters.com/docs/atw/atw-pacemaker-bulletin-16-1943-si.pdf

Brian, tried to reply to your message, but my internet is acting up right now, so not sure if it went though.

In case it didn't here is was I tired to send;

Hi Brian,

Pretty easy to lift with the forklift, but yes the clutch rod does go below the bed. Yours might be a little tricky to balance though because of the short bed with such a heavy headstock. And that big wide carriage will take up so much bed space, so not much room for forks.

The feed lever does go below the bed. I'll double check, but I think a 4x6 was enough of a spacer to clear the clutch lever.

Mine also has a bent clutch lever, going to try to heat straighten it.

And yeah I'll get the feet dimensions and overall machine dimensions for you. Mine is longer though, 10' between centers.

Should be going down to the farm tomorrow, can get the info then.

This is how I moved mine across town. Hopefully the photobucket link works.

http://s1309.photobucket.com/user/mebunting/library/Moving the Pacemaker?sort=2&page=1

Matthew

alskdjfhg said:

Brian, tried to reply to your message, but my internet is acting up right now, so not sure if it went though.

Click to expand...

Got it. Thank you. The photos help a lot.

The seller is going to be lifting this, and I relly wonder how much trouble it will be to balance the load and not cause further damage.

seems like a lot of work to put that lathe on skids just so someone can forklift it without a brain.

I would rent a 10K airtow drop deck trailer, drive there, drag it into the trailer, chain it down and drive to wherever storage is.

I have a shortbed heavy lathe and it's a tricky thing to forklift. Best/safest way I have lifted it is with a strap through the bed.

i have a 16x54 and moving it wasn’t that bad. we used a few straps and wrapped them orotund the outside of the bed and brought the tails of the strap up through the gap inbetween the bedways. you done want to take a chance of the thing rotating in the straps. you can move the tail stock and compound as far to the tail side as you can. i ran one of the straps as close to the chuck as possible.

if it’s still heave on the head stock side you can remove the door of the headstock along with the motor/lower belt door to free up 100 more pounds. once those are off the motor could be removed if need be but i don’t think you will need to go that far

Glug said:

I really wonder how much trouble it will be to balance the load and not cause further damage.

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Just one suggestion from your photo - the headstock on those is HEAVY so I would crank the carriage all the way to the tailstock end before I did any lifting or shoving. There's a lock on them, too. Not a very strong one but good enough to mostly keep it from moving around.

The 16 x 54 wasn't all that bad to move. Usually I just used 1" pipe and took my time, so I wouldn't be too nervous. If you never lift it very high up then it never has far to fall, so no biggy if you go slow.

I'm not a big fan of skids. It's a pain in the ass to get the machine OFF the damn things. I usually prefer to just set a machine on 4x4's and use a bar to lever it up or down onto rollers or the floor.

Do you have a bar ? If not, get one. 5' long, maybe 1 1/2" hex or so, bash one end to a point and the other to a flat, you can move the world with that. Slowly, but it's safe. Some people have them with a kink near the end but again, I don't care for that. It makes the bar want to twist and the machine fall down. I hate it when the machien falls down. Just straight, with a lot of 1" thick pieces of steel that you can stack up and down for a fulcrum, and you're all set. And wood for blocking. LOTS of wood for blocking, in different thicknesses.

And don't get greedy. Five moves of 1/2" is way better than trying to do it all in one swipe. The less the thing tilts, the less it wants to fall over.

If it does start to fall over ? Don't try to save it. You can't. Get away NOW. A broken lever is way easier to fix than a lost hand. 10,000 lbs of machine will crush every single one of your fingers and it won't even say its sorry. Don't EVER put ANY part of your body underneath something heavy up in the air. Not kidding about that.

Sorry if you already know this but ......

That's a nice lathe. You will like it.

p.s. The chip pan will slide out completely, by the way. That makes it easier to tie it down, possibly.

p.p.s. I think that's your clutch lever rod, by the way. I don't see any leadscrew reversing but between the wonderful photo (ahem) and my crappy eyes, anything is possible. Anyway, it's an easy thing to straighten, no biggy.

Brain, posting the pedestal sizes here encase anyone else in the future is also curious.

The tail stock pedestal has the coolant set up and is, 27" x37". The 27" dimension is for the side parallel to the ways. The head-stock pedestal is 38"x33", the 38" dimension is the side parallel to the ways.

Mine swings 24" so may be a little different than this one.

Thanks for the suggestions. And Matthew, thank you for making those measurements.

So, 33" and 37" wide, at 5 tons. That spells very tippy.

Based on the input, I am not going to haul it on a skid and I don't think I will put it on a skid in storage. Since it will be sitting on wood, I might lag it to some crossbeams.

Matthew has posted images of lifting a 24" x long Pacemaker in a field, using a skinny bottle jack, pushing against a plate and a 4x6 on the underside of the bed. If the balance of my shorty allows that, it would make for fairly easy 'timber management' in the future.

I've never found a good way to tarp a machine that is an octopus of straps. Lots of stretch wrap and some tape, I guess.

SeaMoss said:

p.p.s. I think that's your clutch lever rod, by the way. I don't see any leadscrew reversing but between the wonderful photo (ahem) and my crappy eyes, anything is possible.

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There is a second control lever and rod in front of the clutch rod. It is smaller in diameter. A diagram in one of the publications suggested it was a leadscrew reverse.


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LSR is a treat to have - especially on a "biggie" Pacemaker.

My old write up on Hendey's version

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ory/hendey-lathe-emergency-113621/#post421468

Moving my 16x30 Pacemaker 16x54 P&W is pretty easy. Get some quality straps, a capable fork truck and go slow. Here are a few pictures of how I move my lathes. I always go over the top and stay close to the ground. I lift them off the trailer a few inches, wait a few minutes to make sure a hydraulic line doesn’t blow, pull the trailer out from under the machine and lower to the ground slowly. I Try not to twist straps but I had no choice yesterday, we only had 9.5’ to get it off the trailer. The strap under the headstock is rated for 17k, with a basket or U lift.


Andy

" I think that's your clutch lever rod, by the way. I don't see any leadscrew reversing but between the wonderful photo (ahem) and my crappy eyes, anything is possible."

Yup, it's got lead screw reverse. Look at the clutch handle on the headstock end. It is on the square rod behind the bent reverse shaft. On the carriage end, the clutch handle is right in front of the thread dial. Leadscrew reverse handle is to the right of that (see close up pic LSR handle is angled towards the tailstock). I know where the controls are located on the big Pacemaker, intimately. Also, word of warning... when stopping the spindle with the carriage mounted clutch handle, use your open palm to slap it towards the bed. If you grab it closed hand and it has slack in the square socket for the clutch rod, it will either smash your knuckles or your fingers (depending on which way you are holding it) against the thread dial. Been there, done that...

Glug said:

There is a second control lever and rod in front of the clutch rod. It is smaller in diameter.

Click to expand...

Are you saying I need glasses ? Dang First it's the teeth, then the eyes ...

(yes, the bigger photo shows it better, you're right, the front one is a reverse. Supposedly there was also a rapid traverse available but I've never seen one in real life.)

Mike C. said:

Also, word of warning... when stopping the spindle with the carriage mounted clutch handle, use your open palm to slap it towards the bed. If you grab it closed hand and it has slack in the square socket for the clutch rod, it will either smash your knuckles or your fingers (depending on which way you are holding it) against the thread dial. Been there, done that...

Click to expand...

Never had this problem. In fact, mine had a brake. Pull forward to engage clutch (had good feel, you could ease it in or dump the clutch as you felt the need), or push back to engage the brake (also had okay feel, could slow down as abruptly or gradually as you liked.)

Maybe yours was out of adjustment ?

When I have moved small things for my home shop, I prefer a skid for lathes with table legs, simply because the rollers can go the full length and I normally work alone. Cabinet legs are not too bad for doing without a skid. For larger lathes ( I have moved up to 34" so far) a pair for forklifts with 2 flat steel skids work well. One truck front and one in the back, can pivot around corners, makes quick work of moving.
Joe

"Maybe yours was out of adjustment ? "

As I said, the square socket on the carriage lever has some wear in it, also it has a shop made thread dial that is a little larger diameter than the original. Between the two, it will bite hell out of you if you have your finger between the thread dial and lever when stopping or trying to use the brake. And yes the clutch is great. I love clutched spindle lathes and even mills.

Would the economics and logistics of buying a shipping container for it be reasonable? Load once into container, fasten it down, close it up, then pull the whole thing onto a rollback. Unload at your shop until space becomes available -- bonus is you can maintain it and use it in the container in the interim. When space inside is available, bring it inside and sell the container. (Hopefully at less total expense than shop/storage rental space, only one 'big' move instead of two, and elimination of damage risk while in unsupervised storage.)

Zoning/property/wife issues may override this approach, of course.

Chip

Glug, if you are still looking for a D size toolpost PM me.

I use the hydraulic drop bed trailers. Fairly easy to move up to 10K with minimal effort. I rent them from the local SunBelt equipment rentals. Come in single axle or double axle versions. The single axle will handle 4,500 pounds. The double axle will handle 10,000 pounds and has a winch on the front.
Has heavy rings around the bed to attach chain binders or ratchet straps.
I agree to keep it as low to the ground as possible. Lengths of 1 inch CRS or pipe under the legs. Big pry bar or Johnson bar really helps.
Back into the shop and winch it off. I anchor off another machine in the shop. Used a vehicle also. Just make sure you put it around the base and go slow. I use a chain hoist for the heavy (plus 2 ton) stuff. Just have to keep the chains straight when laid out on the floor.