Beware of Fives Machining Systems, Inc. (Cincinnati parts)

LibraryMark · Nov 21, 2016

Just a heads up for anyone considering ordering Cincinnati parts from Fives Machining Systems, Inc. I ordered a brake shoe for my Toolmaster 1D.

1) On my very first order from them, they send the wrong part.

2) Then, they told me to use their UPS account # to send it back (UPS will not do this for me). Instead of having UPS send me a shipping label, Fives insisted on having UPS come by and pick it up (a major inconvenience).

3) They did sent the right part, a 1 oz. part with a shipping cost of $15.57.

4) And - They charged me for the wrong part until it's received back.

Plus - they want $4,000 ( :eek:

)for a shaft that I would like to replace on my mill. There is no Toolmaster 1D in existence that I am aware of that is even worth that much. What are they smoking?

Just beware - these guys are no fun to deal with.

Davis In SC · Nov 21, 2016

Chances are they do not stock the shaft, and will have to make it or source it out. High as prices seem, small parts for old machines are a PITA for OEMs.

Joe Miranda · Nov 21, 2016

I have dealt with Fives and found them to be decent to work with. Not overly knowledgeable but they simply purchased the right to Cinci's replacement parts. Take a deep breath - no need to start a "beware" post.

LibraryMark · Nov 21, 2016

Joe Miranda said:
I have dealt with Fives and found them to be decent to work with. Not overly knowledgeable but they simply purchased the right to Cinci's replacement parts. Take a deep breath - no need to start a "beware" post.

I am just letting people know what to expect when they deal with Fives. The transaction was way more difficult than it had to be. They were totally unapologetic about their mistake and made me pay for it until I return the wrong part. That's pretty unexcuable in my opinion.

Garwood · Nov 21, 2016

If they can't figure out how to email a return label they are failing.

UPS is not cheap for small stuff. $15 doesn't surprise me.

I would have sent a label for a small flat rate box or padded flat rate envelope. $7

I can understand wanting the wrong part back first though. I've had a lot of shithead customers that say they will return something and never do.

Mike1974 · Nov 21, 2016

LibraryMark said:
Just a heads up for anyone considering ordering Cincinnati parts from Fives Machining Systems, Inc. I ordered a brake shoe for my Toolmaster 1D.

1) On my very first order from them, they send the wrong part.

2) Then, they told me to use their UPS account # to send it back (UPS will not do this for me). Instead of having UPS send me a shipping label, Fives insisted on having UPS come by and pick it up (a major inconvenience).

3) They did sent the right part, a 1 oz. part with a shipping cost of $15.57.

4) And - They charged me for the wrong part until it's received back.

Plus - they want $4,000 ()for a shaft that I would like to replace on my mill. There is no Toolmaster 1D in existence that I am aware of that is even worth that much. What are they smoking?

Just beware - these guys are no fun to deal with.

I don't know anything about your machine, butttt... could be the original manufacturing specs are really really tight and getting someone to make 1 piece is where the price is. Just like good toolholder guys are holding sub tenths on their stuff, BUT they spent tons of money on machinery and research to get to where they can make them to super precision, AND still sell them reasonably cheap (compared to the tolerances held).

Reminds me when I was working on a project and the engineer said everyone was no quoting a "simple" shaft assembly. I asked to look at print, turns out both pieces had something like 1/2 tenth tolerance. I advised him to open the tolerance on one piece to something like +/-.001, then make the mating piece to match to whatever the fit was, press, slip or whatever. Problem solved, got parts made at a reasonable price then.

LibraryMark · Nov 21, 2016

I guess I could understand the high price if they had to make the parts one at a time; Fives offered no such explanation. But the kicker was them charging my credit card twice to cover their screw-up. That's a deal-breaker for me.

moonlight machine · Nov 21, 2016

LibraryMark said:
Just a heads up for anyone considering ordering Cincinnati parts from Fives Machining Systems, Inc. I ordered a brake shoe for my Toolmaster 1D.

1) On my very first order from them, they send the wrong part.

2) Then, they told me to use their UPS account # to send it back (UPS will not do this for me). Instead of having UPS send me a shipping label, Fives insisted on having UPS come by and pick it up (a major inconvenience).

3) They did sent the right part, a 1 oz. part with a shipping cost of $15.57.

4) And - They charged me for the wrong part until it's received back.

Plus - they want $4,000 ()for a shaft that I would like to replace on my mill. There is no Toolmaster 1D in existence that I am aware of that is even worth that much. What are they smoking?

Just beware - these guys are no fun to deal with.

So you think they should price that shaft based on what your machine is worth? I imagine whoever is making it for them probably has other ideas.

tof1 · Nov 21, 2016

If you want a company to ship a replacement part out to you before receiving the part back, it's normal to charge for it; even if they sent the wrong part. Mix ups happen, it's the cost of doing business online instead of in person.

LibraryMark · Nov 21, 2016

tof1 said:
If you want a company to ship a replacement part out to you before receiving the part back, it's normal to charge for it; even if they sent the wrong part. Mix ups happen, it's the cost of doing business online instead of in person.

But the point is they never told me they were going to charge me twice - they just did it. I had to ask them about it after it just showed up on my bank statement. And in my experience, a company will give you a reasonable amount of time to return the part before charging me for it. They also made it hard to return the part.

LibraryMark · Nov 21, 2016

moonlight machine said:
So you think they should price that shaft based on what your machine is worth? I imagine whoever is making it for them probably has other ideas.

No, but if they can't offer the part at a price that makes sense, why offer it at all? For that much money I could buy a decent bridgeport and be able to find parts and afford them. Maybe that's what I will wind up doing.

mTeryk · Nov 21, 2016

LibraryMark said:
For that much money I could buy a decent bridgeport and be able to find parts and afford them. Maybe that's what I will wind up doing.

And have nowhere near the machine that the Toolmaster is, which you paid $750 for. That "shaft" as you call it looks a little bit more complicated than you are making out.

[url]http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cincinnati-milacron-kearney-trecker-vn-usa-heavy-iron/need-cincinnati-toolmaster-1d-head-parts-327258/[/URL]

Looks like you thought you got a great deal on a mill and then found out why the previous owner sold it. Maybe you should be mad at the previous owner for not making clear what was wrong with the mill or yourself for not doing your homework. Instead you are trying to throw Fives Machining under the bus because they won't make a part for you at what you consider a reasonable cost. I know it sucks to get disappointed like that but it seems you are a little out of line with this thread.

Davis In SC · Nov 21, 2016

Sometimes you have to be innovative. I had a nice Kondia mill that had never milled, only drilled one hole in plastic many thousands of times, so table, ways and screws were still new. Varible sheaves were worn badly and replacement price was astronomical!!! A few hours on the lathe had me a set of step pulleys. Made a subplate for the motor and installed it and the pulleys. Had a nice 6 speed mill that I used for years... Wish I had kept it..

ewlsey · Nov 21, 2016

I can't believe Fives would even bother supporting those machines. Mucho Kudos to them.

Why aren't you flat out amazed that you can buy any kind of replacement parts for an entry level machine built in limited quantities 50 or more years ago? And they were willing to sell them to a hobbyist (I'm sure) with nothing but a credit card.

There can't possibly be any money in this for Fives. There are two kinds of owners for these machines. First would be dreamer hobbyists like the OP. Second would be huge institutions like the US government who need a milk crate full of paperwork to replace their mill with something better so they just pay someone to fix it until it just can't be done anymore.

Buy some parts for a Mori Seiki or a Makino and see how you like it. I've bought single bearings that cost more than $4000.

LibraryMark · Nov 21, 2016

Davis In SC said:
Sometimes you have to be innovative. I had a nice Kondia mill that had never milled, only drilled one hole in plastic many thousands of times, so table, ways and screws were still new. Varible sheaves were worn badly and replacement price was astronomical!!! A few hours on the lathe had me a set of step pulleys. Made a subplate for the motor and installed it and the pulleys. Had a nice 6 speed mill that I used for years... Wish I had kept it..

The rest of the mill is in really decent shape. I already want to use a VFD to run the 3-phase motor (the motor's in fine shape). If I can't get the variable speed part working, I will just pull it out and make a shaft to mount a fixed pulley and use the VFD. The mill would be worth a whole lot more down the road if the head is working as it was made.

Here's a picture of the problem with the pulley shaft:

LibraryMark · Nov 21, 2016

ewlsey said:
I can't believe Fives would even bother supporting those machines. Mucho Kudos to them.

Why aren't you flat out amazed that you can buy any kind of replacement parts for an entry level machine built in limited quantities 50 or more years ago? And they were willing to sell them to a hobbyist (I'm sure) with nothing but a credit card.

There can't possibly be any money in this for Fives. There are two kinds of owners for these machines. First would be dreamer hobbyists like the OP. Second would be huge institutions like the US government who need a milk crate full of paperwork to replace their mill with something better so they just pay someone to fix it until it just can't be done anymore.

Buy some parts for a Mori Seiki or a Makino and see how you like it. I've bought single bearings that cost more than $4000.

$31 for a tiny brake shoe that they probably got for next to nothing? I am sure they made more than enough profit. The whole point was they screwed up, made me float them a loan to cover it, and never so much as offered a "oops - we're sorry" about it. Don't reply if you have no frame of reference for that.

ewlsey · Nov 21, 2016

Obviously you have never made parts in small quantities and no idea about overhead.

When you call Fives, someone answers the phone. Someone takes your order. Someone pulls a part. Someone puts it in a box. Someone had to pay for some shelf space to store that part.

How many brake shoes do you think they sell? I'm sure they lost money on that deal.

You can't compare machine tool repairs to working on cars or consumer electronics. It's a different world. Cars are built be the thousands and even millions. There is enormous economy of scale. Machine tools are built in low quantities and many are basically hand fitted at every step in the process. Parts are expensive and often don't even fit without the same kind of hand fitting that was done in the factory.

dcsipo · Nov 21, 2016

LibraryMark said:
The rest of the mill is in really decent shape. I already want to use a VFD to run the 3-phase motor (the motor's in fine shape). If I can't get the variable speed part working, I will just pull it out and make a shaft to mount a fixed pulley and use the VFD. The mill would be worth a whole lot more down the road if the head is working as it was made.

Here's a picture of the problem with the pulley shaft:
View attachment 184730

so why don't you have a welding shop build it up, then you can turn it and cut a new keyway? or have it done for you?

I bet you can have it done for a fraction of a new spindle.

dee
;-D

LibraryMark · Nov 21, 2016

mTeryk said:
And have nowhere near the machine that the Toolmaster is, which you paid $750 for. That "shaft" as you call it looks a little bit more complicated than you are making out.

[url]http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cincinnati-milacron-kearney-trecker-vn-usa-heavy-iron/need-cincinnati-toolmaster-1d-head-parts-327258/[/URL]

Looks like you thought you got a great deal on a mill and then found out why the previous owner sold it. Maybe you should be mad at the previous owner for not making clear what was wrong with the mill or yourself for not doing your homework. Instead you are trying to throw Fives Machining under the bus because they won't make a part for you at what you consider a reasonable cost. I know it sucks to get disappointed like that but it seems you are a little out of line with this thread.

This thread is not about the hideously overpriced shaft. The point of the thread is Fives sent me the wrong part, made it hard to return, charged me for the part that was to be sent back, and all the while did not even acknowledge that they screwed up and inconvenienced me. Maybe that's OK in your world, but not mine. Screw-ups do happen. Lack of acknowledgement of the screw up should not happen.

It's sad to me that as our nation heads toward a more service-oriented economy, we are becoming really bad at it.

The shaft is complicated. It's got a spline on one end, half a pulley sheave in the middle welded in place, and a woodruff keyway that will be very hard to repair because of how close it is to the pulley. I've already contacted a machine shop that said as much when they saw the thing.

Maybe I have a misconception about these parts. I thought that the ones that are left are stored in a warehouse somewhere, and when they are gone, that's it. No more parts. I highly doubt that there is going to be anyone who would be making new parts for this old beast.

I do not blame the mill's former owner. It was an ebay purchase, and it has been my experience that it's always a gamble. It's hard to check out a machine that is 3 hours away that they can't put under power. It's still a nice mill, it just needs some parts, and I will make it work one way or another.

Ries · Nov 21, 2016

you are expecting Amazon style consumer relations.
this is not a consumer company.
they routinely sell million dollar machines.
there is no question that they are NOT making a profit on $31 brake shoes, they are doing it at a loss as a favor to their large industrial customers.
you will never get modern retail online service from companies like this, no matter how much you think you deserve it.

and this has nothing to do with "our nation"- this is a 200 year old french based multinational.
we, as a nation, actually lead the world in service to consumers- for consumer goods. Amazon prime, McMaster next day service, free returns after 30 days because you dont like something- nobody in history ever got that.

But it doesnt apply to industry.
And Fives is an industrial supplier of huge magnitude.

Beware of Fives Machining Systems, Inc. (Cincinnati parts)

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