Thread: Cincinati Toolmaster mills

I am looking at several mills. They both are equiped with #40 MT spindle. Would like the pros & cons of the 40 mt. I have been told R-8 it the way to go. I read that the ER 40 collet can be used. Is tooling available? As you can tell, I do not have a lot of knowledge about a mill. Thank you, Jay

Originally Posted by sabrejet

I am looking at several mills. They both are equiped with #40 MT spindle. Would like the pros & cons of the 40 mt.

Are you sure it's not NMTB40? 1-3/4" opening to a long taper, 2 opposing driver lugs. NMTB40 would be vastly superior to R8.

Maybe "MT40" is actually Morse #4? If so, that would be less desirable than R8.

If memory serves, Cinci mills sometimes are seen to have proprietary/oddball spindle tapers, so it is very important to find out exactly what the spindle is.

Regards.

Mike

If it is a #40 NMTB It will be way better than an R8. The tooling is widely available, and will allow much heavier cuts. ( Higher removal rates). Cincinnati made machines with either their proprietary spindle Which needs specific collets. ( My first mill was one of those) PITA but is a very strong and rigid mill, or #40 tapers. If that machine had a #40 Taper I would still have it. If it is a #40 taper I would buy it. One thing to look for is weather the machine has power feed on all of it's axis or not.There are some good deals on Toolmasters lately, and the ones I have seen Have had power feed on all axis, as well as the spindle down feed. Totally worth the money.

R8 is crap 40 and 50 taper rules. R8 is barley adequate for a drill press. I run 40 and 50 taper on all my mills you wont be disappointed.

If you have a choice make sure you get the toolmaster with the 40taper. the only minor problem you will have learning on a Toolmaster is you will learn habits that just won't work on a wimpy little Bridgeport! While the Toolmaster looks almost like a Bridgeport fits a similar footprint it is twice the machine in my opinion. So if you do one day find yourself running a Bridgeport after learning on the Toolmaster just keep in mind cuts that were ok on the Toolmaster will create a huge crash on the Bridgeport!

Oh yea one other little thing. The engineers at Bridgeport were a bit lazy when they designed their on/off switch. You see when you go from high speed to back gear on a bridgeport the direction you switch the switch changes. Cincinnati engineers knew better and as a result clockwise is always up counter clockwise down. If you become a Toolmaster guy and have to go to a Bridgeport this will likely cause you some embarrassment a few times when you forget and run the cutter backwards! So always look at the direction it spins when it starts up.

Long story short if the Toolmaster is in good condition and sitting next to a Bridgeport of equal price take the Toolmaster and leave the Bridgeport for the guy who doesn't know any better!

I believe you are confusing tapers. There is no such thing as a #40MT taper. Briefly, there are several 40 tapers. Some have a 1" long parallel section above the taper, NMTB40 and ISO40. These extentions or sections have a treaded bore with either a 5/8-11 thread (NMTB40) or an M16 thread (ISO40) both will fit the same spindle, but require different draw bars. These tool holders are driven by 180 degree opposed tang slots about 1.770" apart 5/8" wide. Other # 40 taper tool holders like the B40 have no section above the taper and are used on NC and CNC mills. Different drawbars are available for most mills.

Morse tapers are also widely used in many machine like lathes, drill presses and rarely mills for milling. When used for milling the tool holder is threaded at the top for a draw bar in both inch and metric. Otherwise, they are equipped with flat tangs for drilling or nothing for lathe spindles. For milling all tool holders require a draw bar to prevent mill helixes from pulling the tool holder out of the spindle during use.

The R8 tool holder is equivalent with the number 30 taper spindles in stiffness, but not torque, as they are driven by a small 1/8" pin that fits in a keyway in the tool holder. This pin is sacrificial and replacable in the case of a crash. This is opposed to drive tangs in the case of the #30 taper holders. Preference between the #30 and R8 machines is both personal and cost driven where R8 is common and inexpensive and #30 is more rare and tooling more expensive.

Although both the #40 machines and the R8 size machines have the same physical footprint and have similar horsepower (2 to 3), the number 40 machines are stiffer and #40 machines share the same inexpensive tooling advantage with R8. I have both an R8 mill and a late model Toolmaster. Both machines are fully loaded with accessories and tooling. I love them both.

The Cincinnatti Toolmaster new cost twice that of a Bridgeport. It is also twice the machine. Its success was limited because it wasn't price competitive in the market place where two Bridgeports made more money than one Toolmaster.

As other responders have stated, Toolmasters have two different spindles, be certain your candidate has the NMTB40 taper, otherwise avoid it. Parts are also harder to find when needed and expensive when found. I have replaced the Cincinnatti Monoset collets with ER40 for cost reasons. NMTB40 to ER40,ER25 and ER16 collet holders are readily available and ER collets are everywhere in both inch and metric sizes. Documentation for the Toolmasters is also hard to find and expensive. (Read my recent escapades)
Steve

Originally Posted by steve-l

I .

The Cincinnatti Toolmaster new cost twice that of a Bridgeport. It is also twice the machine. Its success was limited because it wasn't price competitive in the market place where two Bridgeports made more money than one Toolmaster.

As other responders have stated, Toolmasters have two different spindles, be certain your candidate has the NMTB40 taper, otherwise avoid it. Parts are also harder to find when needed and expensive when found. I have replaced the Cincinnatti Monoset collets with ER40 for cost reasons. NMTB40 to ER40,ER25 and ER16 collet holders are readily available and ER collets are everywhere in both inch and metric sizes. Documentation for the Toolmasters is also hard to find and expensive. (Read my recent escapades)
Steve

I have a new to me Toolmaster and plan to replace the Cincinnati Monoset setup with the NMTB40 and ER40 setup.

One question that I'm not sure about from reading your previous post, do you have to change the drawbar to convert?

Also, thanks for all the info provided in getting your machine up and running.

Chip

Thank you all, very much. The 40 mt vs the NMTB40 becoming clear. Duke, CinMachine told me it is a 1968 model with the 1-D head. Would that make it a NMTB40 taper or could it be a Monoset? It has collet holder with collet and it looks like that is the kind that needs the special wrench. Thank you Steve for your reply.
Thanks again, Jay

Sabrejet,
Make a wrench that will fit the flats. You will never find the O.E.M. wrench. Then you will need to see if you can remove the collet holder from the spindle. Put the quill all the way up. Move the on-off switch to the center posistion, push the nob to the rear to engage the spindle lock, you may have to turn the spindle a bit till the lock becomes fully engaged. Then turn the spindle with your wrench to the left to let the drawbar push down on the holder. Depending on how long the holder has not been removed you may have to tap on the square so the taper will release. Once the holder has been removed you can decide which system you want to use. Do you have any "C" type collets? You will notice that they are very fragile and very hard to find. Hard to find equates high dollar. Please post some photo's so we can see what you have.
Rick

Chip,
The drawbar is threaded 5/8-11 the same as #40 tapered holders. The drawbar is not easy to remove as you must take the top of the machine apart to remove the drawbar.

Rick

Can not figure out how to post a pic, so if you could go to Ebay item # 380432593400 you can see it. I was emailed a closeup of the spindle. They tell me it has an automatic draw bar.

Jay

Hi Jay
I'm a big fan of Toolmaster mills. For photo posting I usually use Photobucket and just copy the image and paste it in the thread. Anyway. that mill is a newer 1-D with #40nmtb spindle and a #40nmtb to Toolmaster / Monoset collet-tooling. adapter in it. As others have written the #40 nmtb is great and R8 is crape. Who told you R8 was the way to go? The mill looks very nice in the photos but seems way over priced especialy when you consider at least $900 for shipping more for insurance and palletizing. You won't be able to go and inspect it before you buy either. Toolmaster use a lock / fork on the drawbar and you use a wrench on the spindle so I don't think it has a power draw bar. I have never seen one with a power draw bar and I don't see one on that mill. I have bought several things from that seller and the transactions have been good. As far as I know Toolmasters came with 4 different spindle tapers #40nmtb, Toolmaster / Monoset collet - tooling system, #9 BS and #7BS the last two are rare and only used on the 1-C with quills.

Andy

+1 on no auto drawbar... unless they've bypassed the spindle power interlock and are using the main motor to do it. Not sure that would even work, but I don't want to be the first to try it. It does look in good shape paint-wise, and it's clean and well-optioned. It would still have to work as good as it looks to be worth that money. Hard to tell that over the interwebs, though.

"R8 is the way to go" means it's cheap, commonly-available, but is less than needed for a mill of this capacity. When all you have is a tack hammer, everything looks like a tack.

Chip

Thank you again for your knowledge. I have looked at some of the mills on youtube. I see them using the power feed lever in front of the table. Does that make it newer? better?

Jay

lots of confusing conjecture here . i have the manuals for toolmaster mills to 1969 . there are only three spindles shown : b&s , 40 taper , integral
collet (monoset) . the older 1-A , 1-B, 1-C machines are the only shown with the b+S and monoset .

the 1-E, 1-D machines never used the integral collet system -they use drawbars. it may have come fitted with a collet chuck that used monoset collets ,but why the fuck
would anyone in their right mind insist on using them? it is a 40 taper machine , like any other - you can buy any 40 taper tooling you like- so...
i use Lyndex and Collis 40 taper TG-100 collet chucks when i need them , and SOLID 40 taper ENDMILL HOLDERS for milling (remember those?)

NMTB-40 (NT40) Taper End Mill Tool Holders - Choose your size | eBay

if you're to ever realize the potential of hogging steel on this machine (or any other mill) solid endmill holders are a must . collets will work ok-
they're just not nearly as rigid.
i hog with 7/8 and 1" endmills without a sweat .

now back to the r-8 .....
a bridgeport type machine can be far superior to a toolmaster when it comes to milling small parts , parts that require lots of toolchanges,
parts with complex angles (the head will angle in two directions -(nod/shake) toolmaster only l/r (shakes) , small endmills that require higher
rpms ( 5400 vs 3800)

the toolmaster is 2x as rigid.... the bpt is 2x as agile/fast to setup.

it depends upon your purpose...what do you intend to mill?

good luck

Originally Posted by tnmgcarbide

the head will angle in two directions -(nod/shake) toolmaster only l/r (shakes)

what a nice analogy, very easily understood (at least by me)

- David

Thank you, Jay