Cincinnati 10" x 24" Universal Hydraulic Grinding Machine
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  1. #1
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    Default Cincinnati 10" x 24" Universal Hydraulic Grinding Machine

    I recently bought this machine, and took delivery this week. It's from 1954, serial# 4U2B5B-39, model ER.

    I had been looking hard at three cylindrical type grinders. One of which was a Norton 10x20. I began asking questions about it in the "abrasive machining" category of these forums, resurrecting this old thread:
    Anyone really familiar with Norton grinders?

    I missed out on the Norton, so took a shot on the Cincinnati 10 x 24. You know, sometimes things work out for the best. I got a nice deal on the machine and shipping combined. I received this machine a few days ago and I couldn't be happier. Just walking around it, you can see the thought and detail into it, as well as the craftsmanship from a period where quality and detail meant something.

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    More pics, these after I received it, lighting is a little poor.

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    All the brass tags are intact, and add a really nice element to the machine.

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    More of the controls tags:

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    The machine appears to have been decommissioned for a while, but appears to have been well care for up to that point.

    Just running the traverse by hand to inspect the ways on each end, they are not chewed or scratched up, nor do they look like they are digging trenches. They really look nice, though I don't see frosting or flaking.

    The machine was missing some items. Tailstock, ID drop down attachment, dust cover extensions for each end of table, and any wheel mounts are gone. Though ID motor is still with the machine.

    And good news, a forum member has contacted me, and I think we will have a deal on a tailstock.

    Kind of a funny side note. A specification manual from 1947 calls the machine 10" Hydraulic Universal grinding machine, while a 1966 parts book calls it 10" universal hydraulic grinding machine.

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    It's still at my work. I'm going to try to get it to my home shop this weekend. I was a little nervous when i saw the footprint from the 1947 specification manual. But seeing it and sticking a tape measure on it, with table centered, its about 6' long and will need traverse travel. About 5' deep at its deepest point, but the whole machine is not 5' deep.

    I picked up some items on ebay from a fella who had them, a steady rest, two follower rests, and another item I'm not sure what it is.

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  7. #7
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    That is a nice looking machine, and good deal on finding the tooling on ebay! The one item is a table mount wheel dresser.

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    I have that machines younger brother as a project machine. The biggest difference I see is the later model moved the hydraulics to a stand alone tank with an electric control panel.

    Good find on the steadys and follows. I was considering buying them. Let me know is you can't use them for some reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    I have that machines younger brother as a project machine. The biggest difference I see is the later model moved the hydraulics to a stand alone tank with an electric control panel.

    Good find on the steadys and follows. I was considering buying them. Let me know is you can't use them for some reason.
    Funny you mentioned it. Before receiving it, I had been watching youtube vids on similar machines. I saw some clearly had what looked like seperate hydraulics and coolant tanks. I was thinking they might be more pieces I was missing, haha. With it in hand now, I see it must be setup up a bit different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Machinery_E View Post
    That is a nice looking machine, and good deal on finding the tooling on ebay! The one item is a table mount wheel dresser.
    Now that I see it, I can't un-see it, haha. I had been looking at the square-ish end, and missed the diamond tip on other side.

  13. #11
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    The other two may be Cincinnati's version of these Universal Back Rests - makes possible the grinding of small diameter skinny shafts - without push-off (between centers of course)

    Thumbnails are B&S equipment at work
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails p1000645sm.jpg   p1000652sm.jpg  

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    Needed to move the machine from my work to my home shop. Figured I'd rent a trailor and drag it there myself. Requested a quote from a local machine moving company to pick it off trailer and set it inside my garage. $1300. I thought that was a bit steep.

    I toyed with the idea of hiring a roll off tow truck and basically letting it slide to the ground. In the end I decided to build a temporary lifting structure where I could pick and drop straight, and actually have it very close to its final floor position.

    I already had some timber for a different project. So i rented a trailer for 2 days and purchased some addition timber. Each cost about $165, for a total of about $330 for trailer and extra timber.

    I got 6 x 6's and set them on trailer, but put lifting straps under the four corners before setting machine on. Then used large forklift to set machine on. Towed home. built the two sides of structure keeping main pillars level, and backed trailer in. Placed the two sides as close to the trailer as possible. Ran 6 x 6 beams over the top. Secured and stabilized it. Then used four chain falls to pick directly from above the four straps af the 6 x 6's the machine was sitting on.

    Once up and trailer pulled out, I carefully lowered evenly, so as not to swing weight. Once down on the ground, I was about 8-10" off the mark of final resting place. I slid all four chain falls to the side and began to pick slowly, this dragged the machine to the spot I wanted.

    I then used a heavy pipe to slide under. Lifting one side at a time, I removed the 6 x6's and placed 4 x 4's. Touchdown. 6000 lbs down.

    Also, a random pick of my cat securing the house while I was working.

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  17. #13
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    Been spending some time to sort out my shop, as I had to re-arrange pretty much everything to place this, but the results are looking good as I think my access to each machine is improved, and better utilization of what space I have. Though I have a bit of cleaning and organization to do yet. As part of that I added and/or changed how some of my 3 phase power was run. I plan to finish the hook up to this machine this week end.

    I'm not in an urgent hurry to be up and running. I plan on taking some time to go over the machine and sort out what works and what doesn't, and collect the missing pieces. I have some other machines I need to work on as well, so my time will be divided. But in the meantime i'm keeping my eye out for any misc that's I find available.

    I received the steady and back rests with the wheel dresser as well. They are in pretty nice shape, though they need to be cleaned up a bit.

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    In looking for a center for headstock, the 1966 parts book listed two options, MT5 or Jarno #13. In measuring the large end I find a chamfer about 1/8" from surface, so measuring just past the chamfer I had 1.605. I used a taper chart here:
    Dimensions of Standard Tapers - LittleMachineShop.com

    #13 jarno was the only thing close to a 1.6" large end, so without thinking too much I bought a #13 jarno dead center. My mistake being I didn't measure length or small end.

    The dead center I received is much longer than the taper dimension. The actual #13 taper is large end 1.625, 1.3 small end, and length 6.5". The dead center I got is 1.3 and change on small end, 1.640 large end, and 8" in taper length.

    If I were to get it to fit in spindle to the point where 1.605 is down the shaft of the center, it will be sticking out the face of spindle about 3.5", lol. Now I need to make a work turning face plate, so maybe the end result won't be as excessive, but still. . .

    Not the only issue though. The depth into headstock spindle before you meet a ledge of a counter bore is 4.75". I need to sort out the exact size of small end to be sure, but a quick check puts it in the area of 1.375. Doing some math, that puts the taper very very close to the .600 taper/foot that jarno tapers use.

    In fact If I measure the dead center from a spot on diameter where it is 1.375, to the spot where it is 1.605, the length will match what the spindle bore is. So I am considering cutting a section of small end off, to perhaps 1.39", and taking it from there.

    If worse comes to worse. I may just yank spindle out and bore it to MT5. There seem to be a great many more options for MT5 centers and adapters like MT5 to MT3.

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  19. #15
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    If worse comes to worse. I may just yank spindle out and bore it to MT5.
    I would expect to find such a thing to be hardened and ground

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    I would expect to find such a thing to be hardened and ground
    Yea, I'm not sure what I'm going to do there yet. I figured I'd post some of my findings as I go and work on sorting it out as I get time. Plus you never know what brilliant solutions, or parts may pop up as people read.

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    One of my next missing pieces is the grinding wheel mount. The specs I've read, the machine was originally set up with a 12 x 1 x 5" wheel. If I come up with a wheel mount for 5" wheel ID that's fine. But I would prefer a 3" ID. 12 x 1 x 3" wheels are easy to come by and cost is nice.

    Also, I have a No 5 Brown and Sharpe surface grinder that uses 10 x 1 x 3" wheels. So I'm thinking I could "hand me down" the 12" OD wheels as they get worn down closer to 10" OD.

    Most surface and cylindrical grinders use a 3 foot/taper from what I've read. And it appears the same on this machine. Large end 1.5", small end i'm seeing 1.185-ish, and taper length 1.25". 3/16 key way. Spindle threads are 1" 14 LH, 3/4" length, but a 1/4" gap between threads and small end of taper, for a total length of 1". From edge of spindle to large end of taper, 2.25".

    Sopko has a nice website and a pretty extensive catalog:
    William Sopko and Sons Co. - Precision Wheel Grinding Adapters and Spindle Accessories Manufacturer

    and here:
    Alphabetical Index

    I went though every page of their catalog and didn't find a match for either 3 or 5" id wheels. Using their FAQ from home page, i used their guide for detailing custom wheel adapters. I wrote all the relevant specs out. When I called them to attempt a quote, they were not rude or out right hostile, but seemed annoyed with me for inquiring, and off-put that I had the numbers handy.

    They did tell me it would be better to send them a duplicate or the spindle to match it perfect, but they would work up a basic quote in the meantime. Now it was first thing in the morning, so maybe they didn't have coffee yet lol, but its been a few days and I hadn't heard back, and guessing I won't.

    When I get a chance I'm going to try cinmac here:
    Cincinnati Machine Parts: Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. Parts | Cincinnati Milacron Parts | Cincinnati Grinder Parts | Cincinnati Lathe Parts | Cincinnati Mill Parts | Cincinnati Machine Parts

    Or maybe some others from this thread in forums:
    What are some sources for Cincinnati Milacron parts?

    Besides watching for ebay offerings.

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    Scored a big win for me, fellow forum member, Dan from Oakland, helped me out with a missing tailstock. Dan is the man.

    You know its always a pleasure to work with people who take pride in what they do. It makes you want to raise your own game.

    He was forth coming with what condition the tailstock was in, and what work may be needed to it. An end cover/flange is missing. He said he could give me a drawing to make one from the tailstock on his machine. I was expecting a quick hand drawn pic with the dimensions. . . Needless to say I think he went above and beyond.

    I regret I didn't take any pics of the shipping box he sent, but it was impressive. He make a wood structure to encase it, and steel banded it together. And packaged that in heavy cardboard. It was better than factory packed, I think it would have survived a plane crash.

    Checking the stamped number on it, it came from a 1952 machine I believe, two years older than mine. Having purchased follower rests and such, I can use the crabs from those to lock it onto table, until I copy them or find replacements.

    It takes a #7 jarno center, easy to find.


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  23. #19
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    That looks a lot better sitting on your grinder than it did sitting on the shelf in the back of my shop.
    Dan


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