What's new
What's new

Cincinnati #2 Horizontal - New member - New to Machining

PINCK43

Plastic
Joined
Apr 11, 2018
Location
Iowa
Hello All,
Excited to be apart of this community, make chips and to learn.

I recently acquired my first Horizontal Mill and I'm having issues getting it to run. I do plan on purchasing the appropriate manuals for this machine, but I can only spend so much per month (keeps me from over spending), this month was the mill.

I believe the issue is in the transformer, motor or maybe a bad connection (pulling to many amps)? I have the mill wired through a phase-o-matic. when I push the "go" button, there's a loud clicking noise coming from the junction box on the side of the column. It will sound like it wants to start but then goes from a clicking to a hum then one of the reset switch (one on the left) will pop.

I really don't know how I would test the electrics of this machine without a wire diagram/schematic, but I thought I'd first hook the motor to the phase-o-matic and at least confirm/deny its operability.

All in all, I guess I'm requesting some advise or at least an image of the wire diagram.

Again, I'm really looking forward to, hopefully, the beginnings of my home shop.

God Bless

thumbnail_IMG_8442.jpgthumbnail_IMG_8437.jpgthumbnail_IMG_8400.jpgthumbnail_IMG_8390.jpg
 
I know the statics get a bad wrap but I'm running a little newer 71\2 HP Cincinnati horizontal off the same one you have. The lights in the house dim for a few seconds but it does all I want it to. If it were mine I would shut off the breaker and wire it directly to motor just to make sure it runs by flipping the breaker back on to control it. I do remember mine having a door switch that was bad keeping it from running but didn't do what yours is. It was just dead.
 
... thought I'd first hook the motor to the phase-o-matic and at least confirm/deny its operability.
Motor is almost certainly good. Phase-o-Matic is almost certainly in need of at least "first aid".

They aren't all that heavy. Grab some wire & splicing goods, mebbe a box to house them in, shlep the Phase-o-matic over to some other known-good 3-Phase motor - not necessarily on your own premises.

See if it will start and run something within its nameplate range, or no more than 1 HP above or below.

And no, I would not waste my time on repair of a static. And did not. Dead Phase-o-Matic was just sawzalled off the Cazeneuve.

But you may wish to mess with it, so.

New capacitors are not terribly dear, nor are relays. These are built from bog-standard parts, not the special items a VFD maker can afford to have tailored to their needs.

IIRC, the maker's poop sheet shows how to connect it to an idler so it becomes an RPC unstead of an accomplice to motor abuse. Very Good idea to JF doo that.
 
Welcome, and congrats on your purchase. I would agree with points from the guys posted above me, though I don't know or use a static, I use an rpc.

I would check voltage supply and motor first, as they are the two ends of the loop. Then work from one end toward the other.

Check the three legs of convertor are supplying voltage, 220ish between L1-L2, L1-L3, and L2-L3. Always check motor and/or machine is wired for the lower volt range 208-240, and not 480 or something else.

I personally always open the connection box at main motor to check its wired for appropriate voltage, the motor should have a high/low diagram right on it. While doing that, you can make a temporary 3 line jumper directly from motor to your static. Power up and see if motor spins. If it does, now you can work through power switches, relays, transformers, etc.

Not sure if you know or not, but some extra info. A Cincinnati No 2 is bigger and more HP than No 2ML, 2MI, or 2MH. Your serial 5J2P1W, the 1W of serial indicates manufacturer date 1950. The 5J2P portion means No 2ML Plain Milling Machine-Model OO:
https://ozarktoolmanuals.com/ozarks...al-numbers-index/#1462844333672-f3704c52-b17a
 
Thank you for the quick responses. They're very much appreciated.

Texasgunsmith, thank you for the correction. You observations regarding the model and type of machine is correct.

I was able to put the machine under the meter this morning.

L1-L2 = 0.01ohms | L1-L3 = 0.40 ohms | L2-L3 = 0.40ohms

L1-L2 = 240volts | L1-L3 = 240volts | L2-L3 = 0 volts.

So I think I might have a bad phase converter & motor? Bad lead on the motor and maybe a bad fuse and/or unit with regard to the phase converter.

With regard to the motor, could the low resistance lead (0.01ohms L1-L2), be an easy fix by home repair or cleaning or, in your guys experience, is it junk (not worth fixing)? If the motor is junk, should I just go with a single phase 220v motor and then bypass the transformer? or stay with the original setup.

Again, looking for opinions and advise.

Thanks again!
 
Based on your readings something is wrong with converter. 3 phase needs 3 distinct and different hot lines. It appears L2 and L3 are the same hot wire, or something in it that converer is dead.

At this point i would guess motor is good. But you cant check motor just by reading L1, L2, L3. To check it you would need to open little box on side of motor and take apart the 9 or so wires that are connected to make L1, L2, L3. With the 9 wires separated check ohms between each wire individually, to every other wire, as well as the outside motor case. Each 1 wire will read resistance to one other wire, but nothing else. If a wire reads to multiple wires or to motor case, its fried.

The 9 motor wires should be numbered. With paper or metal tags. Those numbers are how you check and set either 208 or 480 voltage as well. As just an example, if 1,2,3 are bolted together for L1, 4, 5, 6 for L2, and 7, 8 , 9 for L3 to make 208v. But 480v will have maybe 1 to L1, 2 to L2, and 3 to L3 with 4 thru 9 bolted together and taped off separate.
 
Last edited:
serial no. book --- 5J2P1W - 3 , Its a 203 - 10 ML plain mill, model LL. 1950, Third one made that year. The 10 is the table width.
 
From “here” I’m guessing you have the generated leg on the control circuit. Magnetic coil in contactor needs fed by the natural legs.

3 phase motors are pretty bulletproof, unless a leg is shorted to ground it’s likely ok.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Hello All,

Thanks again for the responses.

Update: I called Juan from phase-o-matic (very polite and helpful). Juan initially believed that I had a wiring issue to the motor, but at the end of our conversation the motor horsepower came up and we later determined (thanks to cmike and his comment) that this mill has a 3hp motor. The PAM-900HD is literal when it says 4hp minimum. Apparently theres too much power coming from the PAM-900HD for the motor. So, Juan instructed me to remove one capcitor and try again; the lower rated phase converters include one less capacitor. The mill is up and running (thanks again everyone for your efforts)!!! I tested all the levers and ran through some of the speeds in all axis and all is good. Oil i pumping up to the sight gauge at the top of the column and the clutch isn't slipping.

The only potential issue i have is the heater switch on the transformer still kicks out when I run the spindle at the top two speeds (1500 & 1160 rpm). At 1500, the motor will reach full speed, then sputter, clicks start resinating from the phase-o-matic and then the mill's internal breaker kicks out. At 1160, it happens as well but not as often. I will make another call into Juan, to see if he has any opinions or options. We may be at the limit of the phase-o-matic or some unknown internal resistance.

I did observe a couple things as well. 1) on the column, next to the electrical panel cover, there's a wire diagram number stamped in the electrical control information tag (A-104600). Does anyone have access to this drawing/diagram? I looked through the documents on vintage machinery's website (thanks ramsay1) but no luck or I didn't check every document. 2) there's a lot of oil weeping from a hole in the bottom of the spindle. A lot, is relative but there's a large puddle building up on the knee after 10 minutes of running. Is this normal? could another line be plugged and I'm observing a path of least resistance scenario?

Next up on the list is change/add oil, clean and properly locate.

Have a pleasant Friday and a great weekend!

God Bless.
 








 
Back
Top