Cincinnati #2 Vertical mill hydraulic pump location....

I am helping a friend tackle a low/no oil pressure issue on a 1943 #2 Cincinnati dial type vertical mill. Spindle not turning and feeds are erratic. Worked good one minute and then not. All fluid levels are full. He thinks its a hydraulic pump issue and/or regulator issue. Where is the pump located on these machines. Online diagrams are not very helpful and mostly show oil passage routes but not the actual location of these things.
Thanks!

Maybe useful. Higher resolution can be emailed if wanted

See both clutch mechanical adjustment page 9 and removal of pump page 27

Not sure if page 26 applies to vertical, but is the only pressure adjusting info

I was actually hoping for a picture with an arrow on it saying remove this cover and its here. The diagram doesn't help locate where these items are relative to the machine. The lever to engage the spindle is easy enough to find of course. I need the automotive equivalent of a Haynes or Chilton manual showing pictures, not drawings of the actual machine and parts being removed step by step if anything like that exists. Or someone to photoshop an arrow onto a picture of a machine. Thanks though.

Pressure pump is right behide the wall where you set the adjustment. Not sur e this is the machine. A serial number wold help.

Serial number is 4A2V1M 8. The pic you posted above cmike is similar, but on the top pulley is the coolant pump. But that's what I need is a pic like that with arrows to identify parts. Just need on showing the hydraulic pump. Thanks, let me know if you find any others that may help.

C Mike

Its a 210 - 12 vertical dial type mill, model LL. 1943.year. This is the only picture that show it. Its inside the column.

Now were back to the original conundrum of where exactly is it located and how do you access it. Cincinnati says they no longer support these older machines and figure it out on your own.

CNC-Dude said:

Now were back to the original conundrum of where exactly is it located and how do you access it. Cincinnati says they no longer support these older machines and figure it out on your own.

Click to expand...

Back to post #4 and use a bit of imagination or buy a newer machine, so that you can pay a serviceman to fix it for you (I don't think you'd find much more documentation for newer machines either, definitely, not the equivalent of a Chilton manual).

Paolo

That's the problem with the example shown of a horizontal mill in post #4 compared to this machine that is a vertical mill, they are completely different and the only thing in common to both machines is the electric motor and belts. The pump located on this machine attached to the upper pulley is a coolant pump, and not a hydraulic pump shown in post #4, and that is what is needing to be located. There is little or no crossover information that applies to both a horizontal mill and vertical mill, so why did they make manuals thinking they do? The illustration showing the spindle lever is similar, but no other illustration posted in this thread or other recent threads is. It's a totally different layout compared to the horizontals. I agree Paolo, quit buying old shit you can't get correct manuals and parts for, and buy new machines and live in the current 21st century instead trying to fix old junk that's still worthless even if you can fix it.

I'll try again, though it does not seem to do any good.

Here are some likely facts, sorry if they are not wanted

1. There won't be any photos with arrows
2. There won't be any magic savior who documented all this with photos in 1957 or so, and you will have to read and understand the pub that is available if you actually want to work on it.
3. I'll differ with cmike and say its a Model ER High Speed Dial type - which is what all 4A serial machines were, and is what the serial book states
4. The assumptions that the vertical is nothing like like the horizontal is just plain silly in the area of interest. That area is where the power comes in

Post #2 has some scans from M-786-2, but I have no idea at all if any digesting of that info took place.

The related pub is M-786-2 which is a Service and Parts book. There are later versions of M-786, but I have no idea where one would go to find such a thing. M-786-2 states that it covers both Medium and High Speed Dial types

As one would expect, the pressure pump is in the column adjacent the drive pulley bracket - I expect the pump runs as soon as the main drive motor runs

Access to the pump requires removal of the drive pulley bracket - see page 27 in Post #2

As stated in Post #2, higher resolution versions can be emailed if wanted

Before I EVER took things apart, I would follow the instructions on page 26 in Post #2 and see if I could get the pressure up to spec

As far as the pic in post #4 is concerned, its daylight and dark different than my machine. The pump its showing in post #4 may be the hydraulic pump for that particular machine, but on mine its the coolant pump, and has(2)3/4" pipe fittings on both sides, one leading directly into the coolant tank on one side and the other directly into the coolant nozzle on the spindle. So that pic is totally irrelevant to my machine as are the steps in the directions regarding it. Other sites I have found also have mention of a driveshaft externally at the front of the machine. That may apply to a horizontal, but not a vertical mill, and these steps were also supposed to be pertinent to a vertical but they are not. I might as well be looking under the hood of my truck trying to use these diagrams to figure this out. I've been a machinist for 34 years and have never seen such poorly written manuals and instructions in my life. Even the manuals that are supposed to be for my machine don't even show pictures of it when they do actually show pics, its always of a horizontal. There is a guy on ebay selling reproduction manuals, and he has one exactly for my machine. It even has the same identical picture of my machine on the cover, until he scanned the pages regarding the hydraulic pump. Then it shows a horizontal mill just like all the pages others have posted in this thread. If you were seeing what i'm seeing in comparison to my machine in these manuals you have, you'd see they are totally inaccurate for my machine altogether. At least as far as the hydraulic pump section is concerned. Thanks for all the help though!

c mike

CNC-Dude said:

Now were back to the original conundrum of where exactly is it located and how do you access it. Cincinnati says they no longer support these older machines and figure it out on your own.

Click to expand...

If i had a picture of the machine might help me a little bit on getting the right manual. The serial number helps. I have about 300 or 400 manuals, operator manuals, and maybe a thousand of prints. The last post shows the pump but not a real page to say where. If you can show a picture of the left and right sides of the machine will help. Most manuals has at lease one or two pictures of the machines. The older manuals has pictures of the parts , not a blow up of parts.

C Mike

Maybe these come up better.This is during the war, Cincinnati is know for their manuals compare to some others. I will get you some more info. I have had to work with prints where they break all the old drafting rules. One of the big ones is deminision of a hidden lines. The engineers back in those days did all this with a drafting kit and lots of back ache of setting their day in and day out drawing prints when, 1943, 75 years ago.
I was a machinist for about 10 years and have been in machine repair ever since. Making parts helps in doing repair work. Right now with both trades, i am at 51 years and still doing it a little bit repair and rebuilding. Right now I am rebuilding a 400 series hypowematic carrier head.
I think John has about the same back ground, but not sure.

Get a machine from the 50's and up. Manuals are a lot better.

I'll get some pics and see of that helps out. Thanks

Pressbrake posted this. It will answer your questions.

Link to uk factory Cincinnati Factory - Birmingham, England

C Mike

cmike said:

Pressbrake posted this. It will answer your questions.


Page Title

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C Mike

cmike said:

If i had a picture of the machine might help me a little bit on getting the right manual. The serial number helps. I have about 300 or 400 manuals, operator manuals, and maybe a thousand of prints. The last post shows the pump but not a real page to say where. If you can show a picture of the left and right sides of the machine will help. Most manuals has at lease one or two pictures of the machines. The older manuals has pictures of the parts , not a blow up of parts.

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What is the Pub. No. of the manual on line? I am sure i have it.

C Mike That last link you sent with the pump and drawing of the hydraulics was pretty good.
Although a picture of the machine would assure its the right mill.
During the war years it seems making machinery and parts was a priority over making repair manuals.
I think there is an expectation that the repair man has the knowledge to know whats what. The literature isn't always what we would like. Kearney Trecker wrote pretty good manuals
Machines are built to preform a function , not usually giving much consideration to the repair man.

In my experience Cinc. had super manuals with step by step instructions on how to repair their machines. K&T showed drawing but didn't say much about how to. Both Companies had super a service department you could call and they would tell you how. Now those days are gone. Thank Goodness we have Practical Machinist!

C Mike

Richard King said:

In my experience Cinc. had super manuals with step by step instructions on how to repair their machines. K&T showed drawing but didn't say much about how to. Both Companies had super a service department you could call and they would tell you how. Now those days are gone. Thank Goodness we have Practical Machinist!

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Richard, When I took a buy out in 99, we had 55 service men in MI. alone. I think we had around 300 nation wide at that time. Since they sold the family owned business of over 100 years,Many took the buy out and left.