Info Nedded on Van Norman 1R-3-22 Mill

I'm going to look at a VN 1R-3-22 mill and need a little info on this model, I found a manual on vintage machinery, just cannot get more than first few pages to load. Anyone know approx weight and dimensions? What tooling fits spindle? Is there any travel/feeds in spindle, or does the table have to be raised? I am pretty sure this is a vertical/horizontal mill, but I do not see where arbor would attach in the column, can anyone fill in that detail? Any other pertinent info would be appreciated.

From what I've gleaned the old VN machines are somewhat of red-headed step children, as such they sell pretty cheap, but I also notice some folks really like them, care to share why? Need some info asap to decide whether or not to pull the trigger on this machine, all I can say at this point is it is not rusty.

I bought a 1R3 last September. If your needs match what it can do, and your needs don't include what it can't do (it has no movable drillpress-like quill of the sort found on a BP-pattern machine), it is a whole heckuva lot of stout, powerful (3HP, geared drive), versatile, capable mill in a remarkably compact package in relation to its capabilities.

Weight: somewhere in the general vicinity of 3,500 pounds. Size- too late for me to go out and measure it. Height of the main body of the machine is (approximately) somewhere slightly shy of 6', although the overhead control pendant support tube extends higher. I'd say the main body of the machine would fit (approximately) in a 5'x5' square (maybe slightly smaller), though you'd need more room than that side-to side if you are going to use the full X travel of the table.

The spindle is located in the cutter head, which is on the forward left side of the ram. The ram is adjustable forward and back (but locked when in use), and the cutterhead swivels 90 degrees between straight horizontal and straight vertical, and anywhere in between (again, locked when in use).

Spindle takes NMTB 40 tooling, which'll run rings around the 'R8' type stuff common in BP/clone mills, and because the NMTB 40 is more on the small end of industrial, rather than common "hobby" sizing, and NMTB 40 was produced and used in large amounts in prior decades- but yet the NMTB 40 isn't a hot item in current commercial usage (it sort of got superseded for current production by similar but not identical CAT40) you can not-infrequently find the NMTB 40 tooling in wide variety and at moderate prices.

Any 1R3 should have powered X table travel, unless someone removed or wrecked that. No powered Y travel. Powered Z to raise and lower the table is shown as an option in the parts diagrams, but I do not know how many were actually made with it; I get the sense that that'd be a rare option to actually find.

If you want a mill that can function as an overgrown precise drillpress with a movable quill, the 1R3 isn't that. But in most other ways it can do more than the BP/turret pattern mills.

It's also one of the last-produced VNs, and it seems as if many of them were government-contracted but not heavily used, and then, at least sometimes, surplussed off to schools- all in the era in which manual mills, especially without quills, were on the way out in production settings (and probably not even the most sexy/ most used in the school settings). This means that they probably have on average seen way less use and abuse than earlier model/series VNs.

If you search around here for 1R3, another fellow (I think I recall his username was something like thebencarter ) had done a high-res scan of a manual that was linked here, approximately Fall 2017.

Hope that all sheds some light. And if you get it, keep us posted on your bringing it home, checking it over, and putting it into use. Good luck.

Including the two I procured for the museum 20 years ago, I have owned and operated four VN ram type mills and am going to get the 5th tomorrow. They are not as well known or regarded as other machines, but more because of their rarity than lack of quality. They are excellent quality machines, especially for a home shop. Huge advantage is the ability to swap from a vertical mill, or anything in between and horizontal in about 3 minutes, flat.

The head of the machine mounts to the side of the ram and can swivel 90 degrees from vertical to horizontal by only releasing four clamp bolts. Unlike a horribly top heavy Bport head, the cutterhead is balanced so there is no need for worm gear drives to adjust angle. To go to horizontal mode, the head is laid flat, the overarm pulled out from the top of the ram and the outboard support mounted to the overarm dovetail. Takes about as long to do as to read this.

There are 1RQ machines with a quill, but they are rare and take NMTB30 tooling, which is a little harder to find than the NMTB40 on the plain machines. They also came with universal tables, which my machine has. They also came in metric models, with all dials and the feed box in mm... I discovered this when I got my machine home. I'm pretty sure I have the only metric one existing in the world, but make sure to check the dials and feed box.

One of the most brilliant things on them is the stop/start pendant. They have a motor control panel on the side with a rotary switch that lets you select, spindle motor, table feed and coolant pump, or a combination of these in forward or reverse. There are start and stop push buttons on the panel there on the left side, but the pendant hangs from a piece of metal conduit and can swivel all around the machine at about a 4ft radius. No matter where you need to be to keep aaway from chips or see the work, you can swing the pendant around so it hangs right by you. The pendant has a pushbutton start, but the stop is a toggle lever hanging out the bottom. The toggle is non-directional. To stop, you just reach up and swat the toggle in any direction and it kills the power. Every machine in the world should have that feature.

Well, for better or worse, its my machine now, have to go pick it up next week. Pretty sure I was just bidding against the scrappers, got it for $250. There was a lot of nmtb 40 taper tooling that would have been for this machine, but someone else wanted it, 27 pieces x $20 each, and next bid was $30 each so I passed. Of course in typical auctioneer fashion, they sold the tooling first, then 20 lots later sold the machine, I could not see buying tooling until I knew I needed it. Looking around ebay it looks like I can get used arbors in $30 range, and can buy a new nmtb 40 taper to er collet set for $200ish, I will probably start with that.

I'll post some pics next week when I pick it up.

Just noticed my spelling faux pas in title, ugh, hate it when I miss those...

Join the Van Norman Group at Yahoo Groups - lots of info, picts, the VN manual, and the Army VN manual.

You'll love it. Yes, 40 taper ER-40 collet chucks are available.

Congratulations! Great deal at $250 and glad that it is going to a welcoming home, not scrap. Of any of the machines I've been able to acquire so far, the 1R3 is the last I'd ever willingly part with. If these were better known/recognized, or with a sought-after name, they'd command prices with another zero at the end, if not more.

This VN 1R wasn’t sold on Bidspotter this week perchance? I wondered about bidding on it but passed. Too many $$ to get it up here and not really the machine I want.

Yes it was! I initially thought it was an onsite auction, then realized it was internet only. I hate buying without putting my hands on something first, but if price is right sometimes you just have to take a chance. At 5 hours it is a bit further away than I care to shop, but prices locally verge on ridiculous. Worst case scenario if I decide I don't like it, I can move it off to someone else, and probably make a few $ doing it.

I have had a few VN machines over the years, and still have one, they were all automotive type machines and I was always impressed with their quality. I have also had many WVN machines too, and read the history on both, one would think that with such similar names there would be a connection, but there is not.

Morestainless
I tried finding the Van Norman group, but not finding it, do you have a link?

"for better or worse", I hate it when my words are prophetic! I picked up the machine yesterday and unloaded it last night, and at this moment am not very happy with this purchase. The top of the spindle is missing something, maybe just a plate that retains the bearing, but top bearing is exposed and not even running on the race, and you can grab drawbar nut and wiggle the quill. There is an arbor in the quill, and it goes down to a bearing plate that is mounted to the V-ways for table. Even though I have unbolted everything from the ways, I cannot remove the arbor because the knee will not move. Still need to look at gib and see if it has been tightened so as to lock the knee, maybe it just needs loosening, maybe the problem is worse.

I'm kind of pissed because I feel machine was represented as a functioning machine with a video showing it running, but it is clearly not a functioning machine. I've bought a lot of equipment at auction over the years and understand that it is sold as-is, but feel that there were obvious known defects in this machine and that by showing machine operating (quill spinning and table traveling) it was represented as a working machine when it was clearly not.

Payment was made with PP CC, contemplating filing for a return of my $$ on this one, something I have never done. Wondering what you guys think?

It would be helpful to see some photos of what you've got.

Even if it's totally trashed, at $250 you didn't get hurt too badly. You can recover about $180 worth scrap iron plus any parts you sell. A lot of the parts are probably useful on No. 16 and No. 12 machines. For example, the 1R's ram gearbox is very similar to that of the No. 12, No. 16 and No. 16M.

Cal

Yup, pics will help.

On the knee, the leadscrew may be locked up at the intersection where it transfers from the two diameters. These have two stage leadscrews, with one smaller one that telescopes inside the other. You crank to a certain point and then the screw threads bottom, causing the screw to telescope. Not uncommon for that to stick if it has been sitting for a while. Get some Aerokroil. Best break loose stuff on the planet. Soak the knee ways and the leadscrw down in it for a couple of days, then start working that screw back and forth. Luckily, it's not a powered knee, so it hasn't been crashed and driven into a bind.

Sorry, did not get any pics last night, sun was setting as we unloaded it.

Pic 1. Yesterday morning before loading.
Pic 2. Top of head/spindle with exposed bearing. Looked at manual today and I am missing at least 1 part. Anyone know if I'm missing more than just the cap? Anyone have a parts machine? If it is just a cast iron part, making one would probably be a basic lathe/mill project, but I would need dimensions.
Pic 3. Looks like the last job was slitting, machine is setup in an unusual fashion with outboard support setup clamped to the ways for the Y axis of table.
Pic 4. I was able to remove outboard support fixture, at that point I could easily wiggle the arbor around, the bearing visible in pic 2 is not seated in the race.

After removing arbor, and loosening gib I was able to first raise, then lower the knee, so it is not stuck, gib was just cranked tight.

On a positive note, it does have the universal table, and it turns out I have at least 2 - 5 gallon buckets full (as full as I can pick up, not full to top) of NMTB or Cat tool holders. What is difference between NMTB 40 and Cat 40? And can I use Cat 40 tooling? I've been squirreling some tooling away for last few years in anticipation of getting a mill

Edit: No idea why, pics are in reverse order.

Edit #2: Ok, found differences in NMTB 40 vs Cat 40, and that Cat 40 will work, pretty sure most of the tooling I have is Cat 40.

Look through all the buckets for the missing piece. If not there, go back to where the machine was used and search.

morestainless
The buckets of tooling came in over the past 3 years from multiple locations, I just stashed them away. Location where this machine came from is hundreds of miles away and probably empty by now. Thanks for the link, sent a request to be added to the group.

It's definitely an interesting looking machine. Not sure your shipping cost or if you're still in the San Marcos area, but if you get to a point where you don't have time or space to mess with it, I'd take a chance on it. I probably wouldn't get to it for a year or so, haha, as i have a lot of my own pieces to sort out. But i could add it to my ever expanding "to do" list, lol.

I know not a thing about VN, but I'm thinking it could be a worth while project for you if you do have the time.

Texasgunsmith
I am currently in San Marcos prepping my stuff to be moved to Nv later in the year, there was still some room to add a few pieces for a full semi load, and as hard as the truckers want to bang me for a load to BFE, I might as well get as much onto the load as possible.

Looked at diagrams in manual again, I think it is just missing the cap, and if need be it looks like it would be easy enough to make, especially if I had the dimensions. Anyone else have their machine apart and can get dimensions?

Got the mill into warehouse this evening, one little bump on right side handwheel and it crumbled (grumble grumble), it had been repaired at least once, somewhat poorly.

Started going thru buckets of tooling, turns out only 1 bucket of Cat 40 tooling, trying to decide if I should continue to hoard the rest, or just sell it? Need to start packing up tooling this next week, I'd be willing to bet its going to be close to 2000 lbs just for the stuff that fits current machines, lol, what a crazy hobby.