Thread: K&T vert head drive gear

K&T 50 Taper Gear #4640 for Rt.Angle Head Y-035-15 | eBay



--Doozer

Originally Posted by Doozer

K&T 50 Taper Gear #4640 for Rt.Angle Head Y-035-15 | eBay





--Doozer

I counted thirty eight teeth.

Originally Posted by S_W_Bausch

I counted thirty eight teeth.

Me too. Looks a lot like the one that was on Ebay a couple of weeks ago.

Just found this thread on the K&T drive gear. ruralearl told me to search here. Sure is a small world and it seems like all of these drive gears get lost between to spindle mount and the storage dock. K&T should have included a storage location on their, otherwise clever, dock design.

I just purchased a nice K&T vertical/universal angle head for my (also) new(ish) 2H universal mill. And of course the drive gear is missing. I was considering making the gear myself but still have to make up the table lead drive gear box from drawings and details in the H dividing head manual. So, as you can imagine, that means making the spur gear set for that project.

I have flagged the ebay ad and considering that option to get the vert. head running. However, I have heard there is a thread some place here on making this gear or at least some info on the gear and cutter. Has anyone measured the drive gear dia. and the gear DP?? Just a quick check of the driven gear, it looks like 8DP 23 (could be wrong since I was doing this while loading this thing with a borrowed gauge.)

BTW. I did get the storage dock with this head and greatfull for that, however, the double jointed arm is missing. If I can't find one, I will have to fabricate this and some photos sketch with measurements would be helpful.

Thanks, Steve

Here is the thread that was my primer on the K&T 2C/H by Archie Cheda.

K & T 2 C H -- the mill I have wanted . . .

Full of really good stuff including an in depth discussion on this gear about half way through the thread. I think there might be a link in there that will take you back to yet another thread where someone machined a drive gear. I don't think that gear will work for the 2H size machines. If you read the post above you will find that K&T may have made multiple versions of the gear so you have to get the exact match for the driven gear in the bracket - including helix angle. I haven't done any of this yet so it's still all theoretical to me.

If someone else doesn't get to if first I'll dig mine out of the pile-O-parts and post some pics and measurements of the crane arm for you.

Well, I purchased the 38 tooth drive gear on ebay and am waiting for the UPS ground shipment. Should be here monday. If it isn't right then I will look more seriously into making the gear. or pair. BTW. I count 32 teeth on the driven gear with a OD dia of 4.25".

In the mean time, I trial fitted the vert. head "dock" mount. It turns out that "Not all 2H are created equal". The column seems a little fatter at the very top and those round overarm bars clamp plungers extended 'proud' from the top of the column. I chose to machine 3/16" off the bottom of the dock mount upper ears, that go over the clamp nuts. I also had to grind off an area on the casting where the crane arm pivot shaft passes..

Once i had that clearance, the dock mated to the machined area of the side vent plate without any problem. really a good fit now. I still have to make some long nuts and square fitted blocks for those overarm bar bolts, so they will take at large portion of the mount load.

I haven't been able to locate the dock crane yet and the seller hasn't been able to find it either. I have studied the videos of the docking operation on Keith's video on YouTube and can just about guess the measurements and proportions. K&T 2HL Part 1 - YouTube He shows the dock mount clearly towards the end of this video.
A few center to center measurements would still be of some help. I'm looking into my material stock for fabricating it. I could cast the individual section from aluminum but not sure that would be sturdy enough. Steel fab will be faster.

Will see monday, if the gear fits.

Steve

Let us know if that gear does fit.

From left to right on the pictures below I measured 8-3/4" center to center for the larger part and 4" c-c for the smaller horizontal swing arm. That first picture is kind of upsidedown the side toward the bottom of the pic is the top. Let me know if you need any other pics/measurements.

Will see monday, if the gear fits.

I count 32 teeth on the driven gear with a OD dia of 4.25".

On a 2H (and my 2CH), this goes with a 32 tooth spindle gear, not 38 tooth.

Your right John, and I couldn't of been more wrong. Just didn't have enough info at the time I jump in and made a low-ball offer on that gear.

It arrived today and only the 50 taper and it is correct for my 2H mill, Oh! it is left hand helical, that's correct as well. The gear OD is ~6.5 and it appears to be a 6 DP, 38 teeth and helical angle is different. What model mill or angle head could use this gear?? Have to be a machine with several more inches more distance between the overarm bars and the spindle center. In fact since I have the angle head gear (driven) removed, placing this spindle gear in the housing and it would only leave room for a very small driven gear. Never going to happen!!

I don't think it is worth the shipping to return it to the seller since he charged $26 S/H UPS ground, I suspect it would be about $15 that USPS large flat rate. If I can identify what machine this gear would fit on, then I could resell it on ebay or in the forum(s).

Now, am I to understand that I need a 32 tooth gear?? Same OD or pitch circle or OD as the driven gear. Or a matched RH/LH set. Or am I over simplifying this again??

Thanks,

Steve

Left and right on mine - I.E., you are looking for a 32 tooth opposite hand helical to the one installed in the head itself. Approximate 8DP and 4.25 OD. Mine is permanently on its dedicated #50 shank, so its not like you could miss that. The big guy I expect is for one of the larger high speed units such as the 2K/3H head listed in parts and tooling - or maybe one larger yet. You can tell it has to work harder by 6DP. Here is that listing:
FS Kearney and Trecker Vertical head Complete with drive gear

Originally Posted by Wanna-Be

Your right John, and I couldn't of been more wrong. Just didn't have enough info at the time I jump in and made a low-ball offer on that gear.

It arrived today and only the 50 taper and it is correct for my 2H mill, Oh! it is left hand helical, that's correct as well. The gear OD is ~6.5 and it appears to be a 6 DP, 38 teeth and helical angle is different. What model mill or angle head could use this gear?? Have to be a machine with several more inches more distance between the overarm bars and the spindle center. In fact since I have the angle head gear (driven) removed, placing this spindle gear in the housing and it would only leave room for a very small driven gear. Never going to happen!!

I don't think it is worth the shipping to return it to the seller since he charged $26 S/H UPS ground, I suspect it would be about $15 that USPS large flat rate. If I can identify what machine this gear would fit on, then I could resell it on ebay or in the forum(s).

Now, am I to understand that I need a 32 tooth gear?? Same OD or pitch circle or OD as the driven gear. Or a matched RH/LH set. Or am I over simplifying this again??

Thanks,

Steve

I did not have anything new to contribute to this discussion that was not in my thread mentioned above. Now that I have finished a few major projects that were distracting me from my own 2CH, I will be getting back to it, although it probably makes sense to get the mill back together before worrying about accessories.

While I am still considering making a duplicate of the 30-tooth gear I am missing (mating with a 24-tooth gear for a .8:1 ratio), I may have a solution that does not involve helical gears, for myself and others. As mentioned in my thread, I have come to the conclusion that the main reason that K&T used helical gears in the final drive for the universal milling attachments was that this is the easiest way to make gear pairs for the situation where you have a pre-determined ratio (in this case, .8:1) and a pre-determined center-to-center distance. I do not think helical gears were used to cut down noise because the whole column is already full of spur gears.

The solution I have in mind is to make a custom pair of spur gears. I hope to be able to make spur gears (efficiently) on the Fellows gear shaper I am working to bring on line at the Tuckahoe Machine Shop Museum. If one is limited to making normal spur gears (standard addendum & dedendum and standard diametral pitch), then one does not have the ability to match a ratio at a fixed center-to-center distance. I can live with a slight deviation from the .8:1 ratio and because the Fellows system uses generation to make gears, it is my understanding that one can make non-standard addendum/dedendum gears without much difficulty. I HAVE YET NOT DONE THIS MYSELF, but I am considering it. If anyone has experience to share on this approach, I would appreciate constructive criticism. The first step will be to define a gear pair that are the correct center-to-center distance and have a ratio reasonably close to .8:1, as well as a reasonable pitch.

If/when I make such gears, it will not be difficult to make several pairs at once -- the Fellows will do up to a 6" stack of gears. When I am closer to being able to do this, I will be discussing it in my 2CH thread and will ask who would like to join me in this project.

Archie

P.S.: Sorry my progress is so slow, but it is a hobby . . .

Wanna-be: Sorry to hear that gear didn't work out.

For reference the drive gear with the head mentioned by John Oder has 35T and is just about 6.125" OD. The pocket in the drive bracket is just a hair over 6.5 if you include the space where the teeth mesh.

Archie, I've pretty much come to the same conclusion - make a pair of spur gears with a reasonably close ratio and pitch. I hope to beat you to it, but I bet I won't since I don't have access to a gear shaper - or the skills. I do have some 10dp 20Degree PA cutters I was hoping that might work out.

Originally Posted by Archie Cheda

The solution I have in mind is to make a custom pair of spur gears...................... If anyone has experience to share on this approach, I would appreciate constructive criticism. The first step will be to define a gear pair that are the correct center-to-center distance and have a ratio reasonably close to .8:1, as well as a reasonable pitch.

If/when I make such gears, it will not be difficult to make several pairs at once -- the Fellows will do up to a 6" stack of gears. When I am closer to being able to do this, I will be discussing it in my 2CH thread and will ask who would like to join me in this project.

I, too, have been thinking along these lines. I have an old, circa 1920s B&S automatic gear machine that I have been wanting to try out. It can only cut spur gears from 3" dia to 36". I also have very large collection of cutter that I inherited. I guess I could cut these on the mill but since it takes up space, I have to justify it's existence in my shop.

Here is one thing that comes to mind. Not just a simple keyway. K&T always seem to utilize the splined hub. I have pulled the driven gear out of my angle head and since there is a taper/roller bearing mounted on the gear hub OD shoulder, that means the gear blank will be several inches thick. I don't have the gear in front of me now, but seems like it was at least 2". The shaft and hub are 6 splines and about 1" major dia. Might be too much for the single broach method that ruralearl has demonstrated in another thread.

And then a slightly off topic question I have, regarding the K&T model designation. I have only had my 2H universal for 2 month and only had it in my shop for a week now. What is the difference between the 2H and the 2CH. I think I understand that the 2HL the same as the 2H but has a 40 taper spindle and perhaps some other minor features that differ.

I would expect that the mounts for the vertical heads are the same, giving the same gear center relationship. If there is a difference in the speed range, then there might be a difference in the gearing of the vertical head.

Steve

Originally Posted by mpmar_bt

From left to right on the pictures below I measured 8-3/4" center to center for the larger part and 4" c-c for the smaller horizontal swing arm. That first picture is kind of upsidedown the side toward the bottom of the pic is the top. Let me know if you need any other pics/measurements.

Thanks for the pictures and the CC measurements. That takes some of the guess work out of design and fabrication of the crane arm sections. The fine adjustment lever in the outer end section is clever and I will try to work something out that is similar in approach.

The only thing else that comes to mind, of course is, do you want to sell that arm that you have?? No problem if you have a special need or attachment to it.

Thanks
Steve

Nope sorry, the arm goes with my 2CH and I plan on putting it back together eventually. I got it apart and then a bunch of other project jumped the line in front. That head I have for sale is an extra that came with my mill. The previous owner had bought the second head in hopes of getting a gear to fit the 2CH.

Regarding the splines on the driven gear - A quick and dirty solution would be to bore out part of the ID to the major diameter so the broach length of cut is short enough. Not ideal since that leaves the splines short. Hopefully someone will come up with a better idea.

I contacted the ebay seller regarding return of the "wrong" gear and he was ok with that. Then today, he contacted me again and states he has two more drive gears and wants me to give him the diameter and teeth count. I went to the shop and did some measurements and re-counted the teeth in the vert. head (driven) gear and came up with 4.25 OD and 32 teeth. I also told him that that gear might be mounted on a 40 taper since the K&T 2HL has 40 taper spindle, as I understand. I would even take a gear without the spindle mount since I have plenty of 50 taper shell mill holders I could modify.

Well, if this guy has 3 K&T drive gears, then we know where "all those missing gears" have been going. I can just about imagine that over time and lack of use, they get mixed up with the regular holders. I know, once I build a storage rack for my tool holder, this drive gear will be stored there as well. Just my thoughts. FWIW

Steve

Hi all: Seems the drive gear is always missing.. The government is famous for misplacing parts.. When I got my 2hl horizontal universal from uncle sam's auction it was missing all the attachments.. I know when it was shipped it had three arbor supports, arm brace, dividing head, footstock, etc..

I once inspected a large K&T horizontal at a gov't auction.. There was a table for a radial drill with the mill.. The large radial drill not for from the K&T had a K&T universal milling head with it..


Sometimes wonder how much stuff goes in the scrap just because NOBODY knows what it is for..

Ramsay1