Milling machine comparison (I'm a rookie)

steelsponge · Jan 23, 2018

Greetings; This is Clyde (steel sponge) on the forum. For a first milling machine i decided to go with a combination vertical and horizontal. I'm looking at a van norman #22 3 arbor supports and no other tooling. I think it can be bought for 500.00 I would like to compare that to a Cincinnati 2 mh. It appears to be in above average condition with a fair amount of tooling. Spindle size is a #50 Asking price on the machine is a roughly 2000.00 to 1500.00. What does everyone think? I'm leaning towards the Cincinnati :smoking:

, while more money it is much better equipped.

rustytool · Jan 23, 2018

I think you're leaning in the right direction.

Cal Haines · Jan 23, 2018

What spindle does the Van Norman have? Some of the older No. 22s had a B&S #13 taper spindle and it can be very tough to find tooling for them. If it has a 50 taper spindle, then they are are great machines.

Cal

texasgeartrain · Jan 24, 2018

I too have been casually looking at some horizontal mills, mostly Cincinnati No2's, 2ML, and 2MH's some universal, some plain, though I'm not sure how useful the rotating tables are. Most of the machines I have been looking at range from 1937 to maybe 1950. The cost and the weight of those machines seems manageable for my uses. Some of newer generations of those look like they are pushing 10,000 lbs which is a bit much for me atm.

Are the arbor tapers all different sizes in those ? Any other thoughts or useful info ?

Monarchist · Jan 24, 2018

texasgunsmith said:
I too have been casually looking at some horizontal mills, mostly Cincinnati No2's, 2ML, and 2MH's some universal, some plain, though I'm not sure how useful the rotating tables are. Most of the machines I have been looking at range from 1937 to maybe 1950. The cost and the weight of those machines seems manageable for my uses. Some of newer generations of those look like they are pushing 10,000 lbs which is a bit much for me atm.

Are the arbor tapers all different sizes in those ? Any other thoughts or useful info ?

Try for a 40-taper. Still in common use, CAT, BT, Ericsson can be fitted, too.
Cheap, wide selection of "stuff" because of that large market.

50 taper is too large and HEAVY for Joe Average to want to purchase or even manhandle. OTOH, most mills that ever mounted it are serious workhorses, and down-adapters to 40-taper exist.

#9 B&S is waaay better than R8 or 2 MT. That works for me, too, but only for having amassed rather a lot of tooling for it. Collets are still sold new, the rest one has to scout used.

If I could do so cheaply, I'd convert all three of my #9 B&S spindles to 40-taper in a New York Minute. NMTB 30 or 35 are too rare to be bothered with for that.

Oddball tapers are not otherwise a show-stopper.

A single DIY or store-bought adapter, two or three better-yet, and they can become something more common. ER or TG system for small money, Ortleib "Quadra" if you've hit the lottery.

Side-lock (Welden-pattern) end-mill holders recommended if you use endmills at all.

2CW

Mike C. · Jan 24, 2018

There's a 50-40 sleeve that makes that a moot point. If the VN has the overarm, arbor support and arbors with it, and it's a 50 taper, grab it. Far more versatile machine than any straight horizontal. Also has rear table controls on all axes and rapid that can be REAL handy. If the VN is a #2 or the B&S, it'll cost a bundle to tool it up, if you can find stuff.

ramesh_we · Jan 25, 2018

I have mill a pocket for size of 350(L) x 250(W) x 100(depth) within +0.02mm size tolerance and vertical taper should not be in pocket wall. Finish also important. Kindly suggest type of cutters for roughing, Semi-finish and Finish Operations and in what parameter I have to run those operations.

Monarchist · Jan 25, 2018

ramesh_we said:
I have mill a pocket for size of 350(L) x 250(W) x 100(depth) within +0.02mm size tolerance and vertical taper should not be in pocket wall. Finish also important. Kindly suggest type of cutters for roughing, Semi-finish and Finish Operations and in what parameter I have to run those operations.

Is this to be done in curried potato? Or in Stellite? And on what equipment?

Tyrone Shoelaces · Jan 25, 2018

Just my point of view but if I was buying a mill and I could only have one I'd have a vertical machine. I just think they're more user friendly to somebody starting out. I'm not a great fan of the horizontal with powered over arm style either. A No 2 or 3 vertical " Cincy " or a " K&T " would be my weapon of choice. If you can find one that has been looked after you're onto a winner.
The bigger the table the better for me.

Regards Tyrone.

Paolo_MD · Jan 25, 2018

I have a Van Norman 22L with 50-taper spindle. I love the machine, but I would have a couple of words of caution.

First, despite being a 2-ton machine, the maximum distance between spindle and table is a rather disappointing 12". Of course, NMTB-50 tool holders take up a good portion of that space.

Second, if you get one in one of the two other spindle configurations, make sure you get a complete set of collets, holders, arbors, etc., or you're going to spend a fortune over several years in trying to equip your mill.

Lastly, it doesn't have a quill: it's definitely possible to drill either vertical or horizontal holes, but not holes at an angle (without repositioning the workpiece, which could have you facing problem #1) and, definitely, it ain't fun to crank up the 1100lb of the knee/table assembly, especially while drilling small holes.

I agree with Tyrone that, if you were to limit yourself to a single milling machine, I'd go for a good vertical. Personally, I'd consider a 22L mainly as an horizontal mill.

Paolo

texasgeartrain · Jan 25, 2018

I have a 1hp Bridgeport J head/step pulley mill, which is still a work in progress for me. It takes R8's. I had been looking at a right angle drive with arbor support for it. But they don't look too stout, and with the cost of those, I was thinking I could just put the money towards a horizontal mill and it'd have a little more ass behind it.

Its not really a hardcore need for me to have a horizontal mill. I kind of like the arbor support for gear cutters and such with the horizontals, powered 3 axis' seems nice.

Monarchist · Jan 26, 2018

texasgunsmith said:
I have a 1hp Bridgeport J head/step pulley mill, which is still a work in progress for me. It takes R8's. I had been looking at a right angle drive with arbor support for it. But they don't look too stout, and with the cost of those, I was thinking I could just put the money towards a horizontal mill and it'd have a little more ass behind it.

Its not really a hardcore need for me to have a horizontal mill. I kind of like the arbor support for gear cutters and such with the horizontals, powered 3 axis' seems nice.

By the time you get to where you even NEED power on the knee, a horizontal has a 40-taper or larger spindle, 5 or more spindle HP, and is a veritable "pee-bringer" vs a BirdPort, mostly off the back of a more rigid overall structure.

Basically, if the cutter and its support infrastructure cannot move, the chips must do.

Literally "that simple", 'coz "simple" is what they are all about at core.

A horizontal CAN become "embellished" with extra features, but the rigidity is still the core value.

To play in the same traffic, a vertical needs a rigid structure as well. K&T made such. Gorton is another. Giving-up heads that have advancing quills, can tilt or nod, is part of the price one may have to pay. Usually anyway.

Absent a BirdPort's inherent flexibility - both as to utilization AND as a challenge to simply staying where you put it, horizontals may require more clever and extensive fixturing. Fixed and adjustable angle plates and such.

One WILL need clamp sets, more than one, and "augmented" by Mitee-Bite and similar speciality accessories. A vise is less often utilized, and may want matched pairs - or more-yet - when they ARE useful.

Different strokes, different mindset to use well. But if I could have but one? Make mine a horizontal. I already HAVE drill presses..

"Both"? Why not!! My larger horizontal is a "combo" mill. Those are not really as good as two separate machines, though. That's one of the reasons they are rare!

Mike C. · Jan 28, 2018

Having run both a 1hp Bridgeport (Griz copy, but same thing) and a VN22 when I started as a machinist, the ideal setup would be the VN22 with a Bridgeport head adapted and easily removable) to the overarm. The only advantage of the Bridgeport is the quill and slightly larger space under the spindle... period. The Bridgeport head gives both those options, PLUS you have the full three axis knee of the VN with geared feed so you can calculate a repeatable chipload to avoid breaking cutters. The Bridgeport will give higher speeds for fine work and the VN spindle will still have the low end grunt and rigidity for doing large facemill work and horizontal cutters up to several inches in diam (as long as they clear the overarm).

Huge advantage to the VN is that it gives the versatility of TWO big heavy machines (dedicated horizontal and vertical mill) in one fairly compact package. I must admit I am a VN fan. I started with them and learned to deal with their quirks and limitations, but given the choice of one mill to own, it is going to be a VN.

texasgeartrain · Jan 28, 2018

I have seen some mills listed as universal, but I don't see the usual spot under the table where they might swivel. I am wondering if they are listed wrong, or if there is some other factor that makes them a universal.

I know the OP inquired about VN or Cincinnati, I have had in my head for some time I was going to get a Cincinnati mill, as I had been looking and researching in their direction more. But I have been looking at K & T a little bit too.

In the pics, the green is K & T, listed as universal. In fact the description sayes it swivels 47 degrees L & R. I am wondering how, or if the person listing it is reading a spec book on a different machine than the pics.

The gray is a Cincinnati also listed as universal.

Hobby Shop · Jan 28, 2018

Watch the auctions, CL and don’t be afraid to knock on some doors. Depending where you’re at, you’ll find machines that sell below scrap value. If not, rent a drop deck trailer and hit the road.

This K&T and B&S OD grinder both were auctioned off a few hours from me in Ohio las week. I would’ve been all over the Cincinnati OD/ID universal they had but I have to many irons in the fire right now.

Andy

Monarchist · Jan 28, 2018

texasgunsmith said:
I have seen some mills listed as universal, but I don't see the usual spot under the table where they might swivel. I am wondering if they are listed wrong, or if there is some other factor that makes them a universal.

Show us their heads. "Universal" is a term used for more than JUST tables.

Going all defensive and pedantic over that will only cause us to miss opportunities.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Jan 28, 2018

Just going off those photographs I can't see how either machine has a" universal " table.

Regards Tyrone.

Monarchist · Jan 28, 2018

Tyrone Shoelaces said:
Just going off those photographs I can't see how either machine has a" universal " table.

Regards Tyrone.

Clearly not. But you HAVE seen K&T "Universal" / All-angle heads, too, I am sure.
Not to mention ignorant sellers of just about anything ever sold or offered and NOT sold.

What I mean about missing opportunities over being a stickler for terms as WE use them.

We always have to look out for ourselves and verify, regardless.

texasgeartrain · Jan 28, 2018

Thanks guys. I was just asking out of genuine curiosity. My assumption, was like the difference between a cylindrical and universal grinders, where universals have tables that can swivel out to serious degree.

I'm not too hung up on whether the seller got it wrong or not, just didn't know if I was missing something, like maybe the whole knee swiveled, though it seemed unlikely, lol.

Of those two examples, the K & T has something like I've seen on old B & S mills, two fixed shafts, the arbor support slides onto them, nothing fancy. The Cincinnati has an over arm like most old Cincinnati's, dovetail to hold arbor support. Neither have powered overarms.

Another example is a local listing on CL. While I do think it may be over priced for what it is, but I was trying to work out how it cross feeds, let alone swivel. I was guessing it does not crossfeed, maybe keep resetting work, or tool. But maybe there is some feature out of view I'm not seeing or understanding.

Monarchist · Jan 28, 2018

texasgunsmith said:
I was trying to work out how it cross feeds, let alone swivel. I was guessing it does not crossfeed,

The one in the add does not. Speciality production item, akin to a second-op lathe meant to do a limited task, over and over. Just what you need to cut a few thousand miles of keyways or dovetails, same part, etc.

Small shop use, best thing you could do with it is put a saw on the mandrel to slice open those silly plastic blister-paks everything ships in these days.

Other 2 MI do have all their axes. Search ebay, etc.

Nothing ordinarily "universal" about them, even then.

Must be something going around with the flu virus.

Or a new generation of junk dealers that think ANY horizontal mill is a universal mill.

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