New Toolmaster 1B Owner, missing spindle nut ! Collet help !
I finally get to post here! As a new member I hope to learn a LOT here. To get started, I'll need to get my new (OLD) mill up and running. Actually, everything works find with it, great bearing surfaces, table, clean, electrics... Of course I'm going to be just the latest to post begging for parts and help finding collets and most importantly, the spindle nut itself. I see the monoset collets on ebay, at the price I paid for the machine I'm ok with spending some money on the collets but I'd like to learn more about converting this beast to a more standard size, or at least what more common collets and parts are available for it.
The spindle nut is becoming a nightmare. I have no idea where to look, I can't find anything online after dozens of hours searching for one. I've sent emails off to a few places and had no response. Does anyone here have a spindle nut they will sell me? Spare collets? An adapter to use other collets?
This is my first mill so I'm starting from scratch here. Any help is appreciated
Here are some pics of the machine. A little cleaning when I got it home and it is in excellent condition now!
When I picked her up
Finally home in my shop!
Getting everything clean and moving
Another question, I've got a static phase converter right now but I'd like something better. Anyone have opinions (lol) on this VFD ??
3HP 2.2KW PROFESSIONAL VARIABLE FREQUENCY DRIVE INVERTER 10A 220-250V VFD P9 | eBay
Thank you guys!
Get a rotary phase converter. American Rotary makes a good one. Way more expensive than a VFD but you get what you pay for. Greg.
I'm not certain that they all had the same head casting but some of the Toolmasters were available with NMTB40 taper spindles and it's a lot better than being stuck with those propriatory collets, even if you do find the nut. I mention this because I see you already have the spindle out.
ER40-NMTB40 collet chucks abound, to cover your collet needs and almost every spindle attachment ever made, has been produced in NMTB40 taper.
Great find incidently, I'd like to have it, or one like it and welcome aboard!
I saw your private message, but I will put my response here for all to see. First off I hate to break it to you but looking at the photos you put up there it would appear you are screwed. Sorry but from what I see there you have the Toolmaster version that doesn't have the #40Taper spindle in it which would make your project a whole lot better. I can also say that having been in this boat with the 40taper I sold the collets to someone who couldn't get out of them and used the money to buy a nice set of ER-40 collets with the 40taper collet chuck. My suggestion to you would be the first place to look is right here, your best bet is to find someone with this machine that does have a 40taper and is still using the monoset collets and offer to trade him for ER-40 with collet chuck, it would be a fair trade, and the ER-40's are far better made.
As for the nut you are missing, how many collets do you have? If you don't have any collets I would think the swap way of going would be your best route as you will get the nut as a part of the deal. If you have a whole bunch and are just missing the nut. I have no clue where you could turn. Years ago I saw a monoset collet chuck and nut sitting around at DJS Machinery Sales in Howell, NJ. However he didn't know what it was, no clue if it is still there, but I also don't know if he would know what it was if you need it. If someone is here and near DJS maybe you could have someone look for it. I don't get by that way much any more. I can still picture where it was if he has it.
One other option. Do you have a lathe? If you have a lathe, you should be able to measure the threads and make a nut. In the old set I used to have I recall having a set of "weldon" style holders. The holders were just plain round blanks with a hole in the middle of them with a set screw. If you can't get the collets that would be a good way to go, and the geometry on the inside of your nut wouldn't be so critical.
Oh well, you have me out of ideas here. Hopefully someone here stumbles on this and does have what you need.
I wish you luck bigdave, I would like to see that machine running again too.
I would contact Riten, they grind spindles as their mainstay and can cut it to an easier to find tooling for taper. Good folks to deal with. Earl.
Riten Industries: Machine Tool Builders - Custom Live Centers, Dead Centers and Face Drivers
Ohh boy... (shaking my head) ......
IF the rest of that mill is worth the effort... be honest... is it???
If your a hobby guy?... you can spend what ever your heart desires....
IF you're a BIZ man... and need to make MONEY... this probably wont make you any, it'l cost ya a bunch... SCRAP IT.
If the rest of it is in decent shape? .... I'd chuck that spindle and the casting it comes in and mount a ... (I hate the dam things) Bridgeport Head on it...
At least you'd have something that you can buy tooling for... and a minimal spindle drive that at least turns a cutter.
It's a hobby, the rest of the mill is in great condition now that it's clean, why would I scrap anything from it if all I need is one piece to hold tooling.
Bigearl, thank you for the Riten contact, I'll send them a message and ask what kind of help they can offer.
Adam, "your best bet is to find someone with this machine that does have a 40taper and is still using the monoset collets and offer to trade him for ER-40 with collet chuck, it would be a fair trade, and the ER-40's are far better made." Are you suggesting to trade the entire spindle? I'm not seeing how this trade works out in the other guys favor lol. Am I missing another part completely? From my hunting of the vague resources online for this mill, I thought that collets just fit in the taper on this spindle, then tightened up with the missing nut. Is there a chuck in the mix somewhere?
A member here has already emailed me the plans for the spindle nut and insert, however I can't make them yet (no mill!! lol). I'll be looking for someone to take on that project if I can't find another solution.
From what I see, best option is to have Riten rebuild my spindle to use ER40 collets and a nut instead of a drawbar? I guess that's worth a shot!
I've got a picture of the missing nut and insert from another owner
and pics of the plans for the nut and insert
Originally Posted by bigcalidave
Basically the way things work is that the next model up head used a 40taper and than Cincinatti stuck a 40taper collet chuck in it to hold monoset collets. The collets are not the greatest. They are very fragile and break easily. I do not recommend the monoset collets one bit. Thus when I had the toolmaster with 40taper in it and monoset collets after breaking 2 of my 3/4" collets and paying top dollar for them I just went and traded out the whole model for a set similar to these;
ER-40 Collet Chuck Set 17pc NMTB 40 | eBay.If you have the 40 taper spindle with Monoset collets in there you just pull the whole thing out and set it aside and put in the ER-40chuck. Now I don't know if I would trade you for a Cheap Chinese set from eBay. In my case I sold the whole setup for $500 which was the Buy it Now on a set of Israeli Made ETM ER-40 Collets with a 40taper chuck on it and I never looked back. If someone has a 40taper spindle and monoset collets on it I would suggest sending Dave a private message and offering to either trade it out for ER-40 collets, 40taper tool holders, or anything but your monoset. he is stuck with the bad system you are not. As for the spindle grinding. I am interested in hearing the total cost. What are you in the machine for as of now? If only a few hundred dollars pony up another $500 or so and you will have one hell of a nice machine.
One other option. Say you can only find a 1" dia collet. Maybe all you do is get the nut plus the collet. then buy one of these;ER40 1.0 STRAIGHT SHANK COLLET CHUCK TOOL HOLDER MariTool and the rest of the collets. Once you go this route just leave the collet chuck in the machine and you are all set. On that line, go to Mari tool and price up the cost of buying someone one of these http://www.maritool.com/Tool-Holders...duct_info.html plus collets. Going with the Maritool 40taper collet set and the collets should be a real fair 1:1 swap.
BTW, I am curious to hear what it costs to get the whole thing ground out. With out seeing the spindle be careful that they have room to drill up through it for a hole to run the drawbar.
I'm in $250 plus a nice road trip. I'm good with spending some $ to make this useful as this is a wonderfully solid huge machine.
I just posted in the "make this for me" section,
Worth a try :) Anyone want to make a spindle nut for my mill??
So maybe I can end up with the nut. If that works, there are plenty of collets on ebay, and that adapter chuck holder looks like it would work for me, is that rigid enough? Otherwise I just sent a few emails to Riten and if they can do this for a decent price I'll go with them.
Thanks for your help!
One more thought that may or may not be worth calling, you may want to try these people. Cincinnati Machines I don't know what the story is with them I believe they are excincinnati employees. If you go to their website and look around you will see some stuff I think is a little sketchy. They sell a "Monaset" while Cincinnati used to make a "Monoset" grinder. All sketchyness aside with how they attempt to rip off their now deceased former employer, it appears as though they likely have parts for the older Cincinnati machine tools. Maybe others here can comment better on them. I bet they have your nut. No idea what they would charge though. The some of the aftermarket OEM parts sellers seem to look up the current price per oz Gold is trading at and then price their parts as if they are made of gold! I don't know if Cinmac is the same but maybe they can help?
Hi and welcome to PM. I have seen the nuts sell on Ebay but they are usually attached to a master #40 or #50 nmtb tool holder. This one sold just last week
eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices
Set up some searches on Ebay and I think you will find one sooner or later. I might be able to help you out with a nut but it might take a little time. Unlike the others here I like the toolmaster / monoset system and have not had any problems with it in about 10 years. To start with you really only need a few sizes.
Originally Posted by Andy St
What do you find favorable on the monoset collet if you don't mind me asking? Where I found its critical weakness was especially on the larger sizes the web in the back of them is so thin that if you use any slightly undersized cheaper foreign tooling you could easily crack the whole collet. I think add to that the rareity and the far better design of an ER-40 and in my opinion there was no comparison. With that being said for $250 I don't think the OP can go wrong. He bought a hell of a machine and even if he must spend another $500 or so to make the spindle usable he will still have one fine machine.
As for his question on ridgity the machine itself is quite a bit above the ridgity of say a Bridgeport of the same size. On my machine I will stall the head before I crash it. I wouldn't think you shouldn't have much issue using a ER-40 with straight 1"dia shank. Maybe in the heaviest of hogging as you will have one holder hanging below another.
I also think Andy may have the right idea of looking for one attached to the #40 or #50 toolholder. If a person has the opportunity to go with one of those holders I don't understand why they wouldn't try to swap it out. I am actually suprised no one has come forward yet with one offering to send your way, as here is a great opportunity for someone to upgrade to a better system.
Well I've been talking with tools n gizmos, who didn't have a nut on hand but suggested a similar plan to one mentioned here before. Get the nut or get one made, get a single large collet (1.25) and a straight shank collet holder for another style. He suggested Acura flex collets, and they seem plenty inexpensive online, but I didn't see much in the way of other toolholders for that style. Either way, said to clamp it down good and never worry about taking it off.
I also just got a reply from cinmac, asking for the serial number. All I have on the entire machine is the numbers stamped into the ways under the knee. Is that my serial number?
Pic here http://i.imgur.com/Q1hlh.jpg
A little big of progress, I figure I'll post all the details here in case anyone comes looking for this same info in the future. It's always nice to find that one thread that contains everything!
Got an email that said to call mag-ias, as the original maker. Those guys have ALL the original Cincinnati parts, can look up machines in books, etc. They seem to be the place to go for old Cincinnati machine parts.
MAG - The Global Machine Tool Manufacturer: MAG
1-800-934-0735 press 4 press 1 currently gets you through to the old parts reference department.
We couldn't look up the machine from the serial number posted above, but adding a number 2 in the 62JC turned up a toolmaster 1B.
The part numbers from the schematics didn't necessarily cross reference, but they could have been superseded. What I can tell you is that they have them if I win the lottery :P
Here are the part numbers and costs brand new. That would be my last resort, which I suppose isn't TOO BAD.
ETA: Called back once I found the serial number
Turns out I need a
183685F nut, which is in stock and has the other parts already. Total price $257. That's actually not a bad deal and unless a used one turns up I think I'll order it.
If anyone needs something for a Cincinnati machine, and wants it OEM new, I recommend calling MAG-IAS.
Now to keep looking for a used one!
Last edited by bigcalidave; 04-23-2012 at 01:38 PM.
Well I'll be damned, there IS a serial number on the machine. At the top of the vertical way in the center, it was just well hidden in some oldness. A little scrubbing and I've got success.
Who can decode this for more details
Just for laughs, I got a quote on a replacement nut from cinmac.com of $425, with a single collet I wanted for 327. I think thats a little out of my range!
Wow so not only do those guys knock off their former employers with about as much grace as the Chinese "Durocell" batteries but they also charge twice as much! I noticed in this posting Toolmaster 1d, Back Gear lube?, Table feed Cam Follower? by the way another member is buying the 1D which has to be one of the finest Bridgeport type mills out there on the market and says he is looking to replace the monoset collets. So hopefully the 2 of you can work something out.
Originally Posted by bigcalidave
Quick update, and a little cause for celebration. Can anyone help me set up the VFD for the motor / mill ?? What are my limits?
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