Thread: Poor man's three-phase converter

Hello,, I'm a new member and I think this is a great site thanks to everyone that puts it together. I just got a great deal on a Cincinnati toolmaster I will try to post pictures sometime soon but for now I'm trying to figure out how to wire this machine up, the maintenance guy at the plant that I bought it from said that it's been converted but my father looked at it once I got home and said it still looks like it's 3-phase, it has a 1-hp Fairbanks Morse motor on it. My father said his buddy has a Saw Mill with a three-phase ripper Saw and what they did was took a spare three-phase motor and ran single phase to it then belted up a single phase motor to it And then you get that three-phase motor spinning throw the power to it kicked the belt off of it and that'll produce the three phase for my machine... does this sound correct? It also has a vision micro series motor control.. not sure if this has something to do with the conversion The maintenance guy was talking about

diy - How to Build a Rotary Phase Converter to Convert Single Phase to Three Phase
Phase Converters
SINGLE to 3 PHASE CONVERTER

Hi and welcome to PM. I'm a big fan of Toolmasters. If the Vision controller is a single phase in type that is all you should need. The Vision is VFD variable frequency drive. I would think you should be able to find a manual for the Vision on line. The VFD can do other things for you as well.
post what model you have and some photos.

Andy

Originally Posted by Milkhauler

Hello,, I'm a new member and I think this is a great site thanks to everyone that puts it together. I just got a great deal on a Cincinnati toolmaster I will try to post pictures sometime soon but for now I'm trying to figure out how to wire this machine up, the maintenance guy at the plant that I bought it from said that it's been converted but my father looked at it once I got home and said it still looks like it's 3-phase, it has a 1-hp Fairbanks Morse motor on it. My father said his buddy has a Saw Mill with a three-phase ripper Saw and what they did was took a spare three-phase motor and ran single phase to it then belted up a single phase motor to it And then you get that three-phase motor spinning throw the power to it kicked the belt off of it and that'll produce the three phase for my machine... does this sound correct? It also has a vision micro series motor control.. not sure if this has something to do with the conversion The maintenance guy was talking about

That's how I start my converter.

I'm doing all this on my iPhone i can't figure out how to upload images. I will try to get some pictures up today

Here are some more pictures of the Cincinnati Toolmaster I just got. Still trying to get this photo uploading figured out, bare with me. Can anybody tell me what model this is? The only thing it's missing is the Y axis power feed motor. Don't know alot about this mill, it's my first one. I still have to check if it will run on single phase through the VFD. I got a lot of tooling that came with it also. I'll try to post more pix on those because I think there is some tooling there that doesn't belong to my machine. Can anybody tell me if I can post more than 3 pix at time?????

Hi Milkhauler
Your Toolmaster is the 1-B model or 1-B head. It uses the Toolmaster / Monoset collet-tooling system that you seem to have lots of (photo). The head has a power feed to the quill and looks like it has the C to A collet adapter in the spindle. If you end up not using the Y power feed (because of the missing motor) I could use some parts for mine.
I'm not sure how many photos you can post but I think it is 5.
If the VFD turns out to be 1 phase in and 3 out remember to use the controls on the VFD to turn it off and on NOT the switches on the head or body of the mill. If you look in the electrical forum on PM you should find more info about using the VFD.
Let me know if you need more help
Andy

Transformers, Phase Converters and VFD
If it's not there, you don't need it.

Bob

I uploaded (5) pics for an ad, and I thinks that's the limit. If you want to add more just post another reply with the pics.

On my Toolmaster 1D, the power feed motors are three phase as well. You should only run one motor per VFD, if that is indeed what the Vision device is, so you'll still need some source of three phase for those motors, and the surprising amount of electric equipment behind the back panel. It's more than a switch and a motor. (But I'm not sure there's a good reason for that, except for power-fail restart issues.)

It may be cheaper, of course, to go with modern aftermarket power feeds and sell your OEM stuff.

If you find you have one too many large diameter insert mills, let me know!

Chip

FWIW if u need 3 phase ............since a 3 Phase mtr will run on two 120 single leads , once you get it started ,it then generates usable 3 phase for your non CNC needs .....by using a start capacitor thru a momentary switch to pull a third lead FROM one of the original two leads, you can start the 3phase idler w/out need for a rope pull or a "pony " mtr......as soon as the mtr gets near speed , you release the momentary switch & it runs on the two 120 leads...then the 3 leads from the idler are tapped & run to your load mtr.
in the 3 phase section of my home shop , i am running a 10 hp 3 phase idler ....for 3 hp , 5 hp , & 71/2 hp mtrs ..one at a time .... BUT if more 3 phase is needed , just running one of the machine mtrs will allow it to generate that mtr's xtra HP to add to the idler HP...........i have 750 MFD of START capacity , & because of the size of the idler , it acts abt like an infinite buss , & i have no RUN capacitors ....working well after 5years or so of intermittant use..
abt 60 -100 mfd start cap per HP needed ......in my set up , the idler comes up to speed before i can get my finger off the momentary switch ....less mfd capacity means a second or 2 to get up to speed..before releasing the momentary ....

i am not an EE nor electrician so i am not claiming any expertise .....but have done a lot of different things in 80 years including wiring several dozen homes...............
an idler double the HP needed has worked well for me & been very simple to construct ...idlers less than double have been recommended , BUT generally need RUN capacitors to balance out & unfortunatly ,they can only be configured for a specific HP & a specific LOAD on the machine ....so for multiple usages , larger HP makes life simpler....( IMO , also for single usage .)
one CAVEAT ...if you have a power failure ,switch the idler off ...because when power is restored, it will try to respin up to speed on only 2 leads since yoou are not switching in the start capacitor ...& you will most like ly lose th e idler mtr....there are more complicated electronic circuits that will do all this for you ( start the mtr, cut the capacitor out, & restart it after a failure ).if you like electronic circuitry & dont mind spending more money ...or if you REALLY want to get basic, just wrap a rope on the mtr pulley & spin it up !!!
best wishes
doc

Hi Andy what do you think the chances of me finding a OEM power feed motor for this and how many arms and legs do you think it would cost me? if I can't find one then I might be interested in letting go of some part. What parts are you needing? In one of the pictures on my original post,can you tell me what that tooling is worth(the plainer bit and the two facing tools... I guess that's what they are?)

Here is the feed motor and other parts from the manual. The part number of the motor is 152543. I really don't know how hard it would be to find the motor. You might have to buy a parts mill to get one. It might be possible to adapt another motor to it.
Don't know about the cutter value try looking them up on ebay. What you are calling "plainer" (on the right in the photo) is usually called a slab horizontal milling cutter the others look like old insert type face mills.
Andy

Hey Andy...I haven't had time to do much but I did find the parts and service manual from the place I got the mill and there was some notes in there suggesting they ordered some gears for the powerfeed so I took the side cover off and found there to be acouple gears pretty chewed up. I can't seem to find any of these parts and from what I'm hearing from some guys, I probably won't ever unless I buy a whole machine for part and sense this is a hobby, I can live without that powerfeed so if can give me the part#'s I'll see if I got those ones or are you saying you need the whole gearbox? Just let me know I would consider sell or trade. I do need a few more things to get it going...I think I'm just going to buy or trade for a RPC and I still would like to find a good vise. Thanks

Hi Milkhauler
I will get a list and a photo of what I need. I don't need anything in the gear box but others might. Cash might be better for me but I do have lots of vises and might still have a RPC. Shipping might be to high for a trade to work.
I'll get back to you tomorrow
thanks
Andy

I'm looking for any of the parts under the red line (all of the detent stuff). I will get the parts numbers soon but the Key numbers are 212B and 217B - 229B if you have the parts manual.
Thanks
Andy

Im away from home for work now but I'm sure I have those parts. I'm not sure what a fair price would be and i dont know how much value it will take away from the machine but like I was saying I'd really like to get it up and running

Milkhauler
Please pm me with your contact info. I'm still interested in buying or trading for the parts.
Thanks
Andy