Practicality of reducing motor horsepower of KT #4 vertical mill

HOMESTEAD · Apr 26, 2017

A Kearney & Trecker #4 vertical mill is on the auction block in the near future not too far from me. It's a 450 TF. I'd love one of these monsters, but the biggest problem is that it's got a 50 hp motor. I don't need a machine capable of running a 12" face mill an inch deep. The long travels and the ability to handle large and heavy work pieces is very appealing though.

Would it be practical to swap out the 50 hp motor with something smaller? Seems to me you could get a #4 with a 25 hp motor as well? What is the horsepower loss through the gear train on one of these things? In all reality, if I had 7.5 or even 5 hp available at the spindle that would probably be plenty for what I'd do with it. Could a 10 or 15 hp motor drive it and have any kind of capacity left? I could power a 25 hp motor without any problem, but it just doesn't seem sensible having a big motor whirring away when most of the time I only need a few hp to do what I'd do.

Yes, I know rigging one of these won't be cheap. I know hauling one of these won't be cheap, but I have a connection that could do it very reasonably. I have heavy equipment available on my end to move it. I have reasonably heavy electrical service on my own transformer.

I just hate to see these beautiful old machines end up in the pot.

johnoder · Apr 26, 2017

There were 450 TF machines with 25/50 HP motors - the low speed did the trick thru 625 RPM and the 50 served the high range

I think they all had separate knee motors

Yes, I know rigging one of these won't be cheap

17,350 Lbs

Monarchist · Apr 26, 2017

HOMESTEAD said:
I just hate to see these beautiful old machines end up in the pot.

Then help a local buddy acquire it who HAS the power to run it, borrow time or contract when you need it. That was near-as-dammit a finish pass you described BTW. Hard to believe what a seriously good 50 HP mill can do at full-gallop.

Wiser to find smaller, a medium, not lightweight, then build yerself good, adjustable independent support tables.

Ask John if his manuals specify the slab thickness of concrete these critters wanted under them. Close-on nine tons, and not strung-out like a long-bed lathe? They don't sit on no greasy paper picnic plates.

CalG · Apr 26, 2017

HOMESTEAD said:
A Kearney & Trecker #4 vertical mill is on the auction block in the near future not too far from me. It's a 450 TF. I'd love one of these monsters, but the biggest problem is that it's got a 50 hp motor. I don't need a machine capable of running a 12" face mill an inch deep. The long travels and the ability to handle large and heavy work pieces is very appealing though.

Would it be practical to swap out the 50 hp motor with something smaller? Seems to me you could get a #4 with a 25 hp motor as well? What is the horsepower loss through the gear train on one of these things? In all reality, if I had 7.5 or even 5 hp available at the spindle that would probably be plenty for what I'd do with it. Could a 10 or 15 hp motor drive it and have any kind of capacity left? I could power a 25 hp motor without any problem, but it just doesn't seem sensible having a big motor whirring away when most of the time I only need a few hp to do what I'd do.

Yes, I know rigging one of these won't be cheap. I know hauling one of these won't be cheap, but I have a connection that could do it very reasonably. I have heavy equipment available on my end to move it. I have reasonably heavy electrical service on my own transformer.

I just hate to see these beautiful old machines end up in the pot.

Hey, It's an electric motor that is only going to draw electricity in proportion to the work it's asked to do.

Sure a 50 HP motor will draw a bit at idle, but you likely won't be running it that much ;-)

If a motor swap is easy, put in a 15-20 hp unit and have at it. If inrush is a problem, there are starting schemes to deal with that. A VFD would serve.

I say if you have the want for it, and it comes your way, you will find a way to use it with or without the 50HP motor.

alskdjfhg · Apr 26, 2017

HOMESTEAD said:
Yes, I know rigging one of these won't be cheap.

With a rollback should be cheap, easy and fast.Starting To Unload Photo by mebunting | Photobucket Moved my older and lighter 5CK with one.

Normal charge for in town running around (50-100 mile one way distance), is $300-$500.

A vertical will be more top heavy than a horizontal, but should still be very doable with a rollback.

Monarchist · Apr 26, 2017

alskdjfhg said:
With a rollback should be cheap, easy and fast.Starting To Unload Photo by mebunting | Photobucket Moved my older and lighter 5CK with one.

Normal charge for in town running around (50-100 mile one way distance), is $300-$500.

A vertical will be more top heavy than a horizontal, but should still be very doable with a rollback.

You've got quite the stable of Old Heavies by now. I think you've posted it somewhere on PM already, but how thick a slab did you finally pour?

HBX-360-BC lathe Don and I finally settled-on calls for 16" thick slab, 5" longer and wider than the lathe.

I'd have to surmise Mssr's Henri Bruet, elder and younger, owned more stock in a French cement company than they did in Cazeneuve!

The HBX is about 400 lbs lighter than an MG-era 10EE and has around 20-30% more spread of a footprint.

HOMESTEAD · Apr 27, 2017

Gentlemen, thanks for the replies.

HOMESTEAD · Apr 27, 2017

Monarchist said:
Then help a local buddy acquire it who HAS the power to run it, borrow time or contract when you need it.

Unfortunately I know no such buddy. Most of my friends would rather spend their money on $40,000 pickup trucks, four wheelers, boats, and the like. I'd rather have huge machine tools and obsolete construction equipment. I'd love to find someone around my area that had similar interests though.

Monarchist said:
That was near-as-dammit a finish pass you described BTW. Hard to believe what a seriously good 50 HP mill can do at full-gallop.

Lol, I don't doubt it. I'd love to find a youtube video showing one at full tilt, but all I can find are demonstration videos from yoder and machinery consultants.

dana gear · Apr 27, 2017

The K&T 450 TF are great machines, with these machines you are stepping into a whole new world of milling.
The tooling for this machine even used is a little on the high side.
My buddy has one, it sits on a 1 inch steel plate about a foot wider then the foot print of the machine.
Setting on 6 inches of reinforced concrete, so far has not been a problem.
You could change out the motor for a smaller one, it should not be a problem.
You will need to match your maximum machine load to motor size though.
There is not a lot or parasitic horse power loss through the gear train with no load.
It's true amperage draw will be dependent on load, however starting amperage is something you can't get around.
You will still need electrical components, wiring brakers etc that will support the motor starting load.
If you stay with the original motor, I would be VERY carful about adding a VFD to the factory motor.
VFD's have there place however the older windings in the motor most likely won't be happy very long.
You may want to see if any heavy equipment haulers in your area could move it, generally they have larger forklifts that could set on there trailer along with the mill for pick up and drop off. Cheap. No.
We have our own low bed and many times we put our caterpillar 12 ton lift on it to go and pick up equipment.
We load equipment on the back of the trailer and then put the lift on the front and away we go...

CalG · Apr 27, 2017

Wye start delta run, will pull the motor up without pulling the line in power down (too far;-).

There are ways around starting amps.

HOMESTEAD · Apr 27, 2017

dana gear said:
You may want to see if any heavy equipment haulers in your area could move it, generally they have larger forklifts that could set on there trailer along with the mill for pick up and drop off.

I'm relatively good friends with a guy that does heavy haul and dirt work for a living. He's got trucks and some very large wheel loaders capable of lifting anything I'd want to get involved with at the moment. Getting it moved shouldn't be much of a problem....at least if things go smoothly at the auction site...... The biggest problem always ends up being trying to coordinate multiple people's schedules.

dana gear said:
We have our own low bed and many times we put our caterpillar 12 ton lift on it to go and pick up equipment.
We load equipment on the back of the trailer and then put the lift on the front and away we go...

That's my dream

alskdjfhg · Apr 27, 2017

Monarchist said:
You've got quite the stable of Old Heavies by now. I think you've posted it somewhere on PM already, but how thick a slab did you finally pour?

ewsley's blanchard grinder rebuild thread is an example of why I haven't been posting about the shop. I've been keeping details down, so probably haven't posted that info.

It's only a 6" slab, but with damn near 5' thick of stable compacted fill under it. Didn't want to use that much dirt, but that's just how it ended up.

45 tons inside as of now, 30 more tons to go. That 30tons is mostly in the form of the HBM and the heaviest lathe.

HOMESTEAD said:
Most of my friends would rather spend their money on $40,000 pickup trucks, four wheelers, boats, and the like. I'd rather have huge machine tools and obsolete construction equipment.

What they don't realize is that the old machine tools and construction equipment are generally more expensive in the end than the new pickup......

Although 40k for a new pickup is pretty cheap. That's the reason why I keep driving my old turd.

Monarchist · Apr 27, 2017

alskdjfhg said:
Although 40k for a new pickup is pretty cheap. That's the reason why I keep driving my old turd.

Not many lifestyles or business needs actually justify 'new pickups'. Motor vehicles and their taxes and maintenance are a constant drain on resources. A form of slavery they can become.

Just keep driving 'veteran' vehicles of decently low upkeep, trade for another when costs get onerous, stay closer to the 'zone' where you don't have to do a damned thing you do not WANT to do, then retire wealthier and earlier as well.

ramsay1 · Apr 27, 2017

50 hp is the limit of my shop.. Power company would have to hang a bigger transformer for the third leg if I bought this machine.. Ramsay 1

Mike C. · Apr 29, 2017

6" should be plenty of floor, if it is properly reinforced and a good solid pour. When researching the floor thickness of my shop, I came across and Army manual that discussed floors and shops. They said a 6" thick floor was very suitable for a TANK SHOP. If it'll hold a tank rolling in and out, it'll damned sure hold stationary machine tools.

Monarchist · Apr 29, 2017

Mike C. said:
6" should be plenty of floor, if it is properly reinforced and a good solid pour. When researching the floor thickness of my shop, I came across and Army manual that discussed floors and shops. They said a 6" thick floor was very suitable for a TANK SHOP. If it'll hold a tank rolling in and out, it'll damned sure hold stationary machine tools.

Agree six inches should do, so long as the subgrade was done right, and to top specs.

But don't go by tracked vehicles!

A main battle tank has a lot of mass, but a hellacious large footprint. Has to do if it is to traverse a marsh or cowpasture without the crew switching to US Navy uniform with Dolphins.

Tank puts lower unit pressure per square foot onto the Earth than a Jeep with 45 PSI tire inflation. One-ton per SQ FT AKA 14 PSIG in CE calculations for trafficability & c.

A better "Army" number is storage and handling pads for industrial gas cylinders, several hundreds such per-each, shoulder-to-shoulder. TEN inches our pads were, reinforced, and poured over compacted 'laterite' soil (low-grade Iron ore).

Those who call for 16" (Cazeneuve HBX-360-BC) are not 'wrong'. Just far too hundred-year, 3 shifts a day, interrupted-cut-always worst-case cautious.

HOMESTEAD · Apr 30, 2017

How well do the sliding head milling machines work for heavy drilling? I know the head has rapid traverse, so I'm assuming the head will also power feed down at different rates suitable for drilling? Or do you typically just power feed the knee up?

Monarchist · Apr 30, 2017

HOMESTEAD said:
How well do the sliding head milling machines work for heavy drilling? I know the head has rapid traverse, so I'm assuming the head will also power feed down at different rates suitable for drilling? Or do you typically just power feed the knee up?

Some claim a good mill is the best drill press out there. I've never been one of them.

Too cumbersome to set up, less quill travel, may need to use BOTH quill and knee, RPM is not always a good match to drill size and material. Use a 'plunge' endmill, some of that works out much better.

Disclosure: Biased.

I worked with Hamilton sensitives, Powermatic air-raid sirens, drilled on M-head and 1j beePees, then also three to eight-foot American or Cincinnati-Bickford radials, own an Alzmetall AB5/S, 7.5 HP, 9 1/2" quill travel, 5 MT, plus Z on the table.

My little Walker-Turner DP is no match above 1/2", but it is right fast as to setup, good enough down to #60. Between #60 and # 80, one wants the Hamilton or similar. Smaller than #80, one wants Swiss, and/or a Priest on-side.

Demon69 · Apr 30, 2017

alskdjfhg said:
ewsley's blanchard grinder rebuild thread is an example of why I haven't been posting about the shop. I've been keeping details down, so probably haven't posted that info.

Opinions are like assholes, everybody got one. Dont let em hold back mate

Mike C. · Apr 30, 2017

"How well do the sliding head milling machines work for heavy drilling? I know the head has rapid traverse, so I'm assuming the head will also power feed down at different rates suitable for drilling? Or do you typically just power feed the knee up? "

As said above, if you have a good radial drill, it's a WHOLE to easier and faster to set up, but the big sliding head mills are EXCELLENT for drilling, especially locating critical holes. The head feed runs at 1/2 the table feeds. All you do is calculate your feed rate in inches per revolution from spindle speed and inches per minute.

You can feed either with the table or the head, but the #3 Cincy at work has a turret stop on the head, so it's a lot better.

Practicality of reducing motor horsepower of KT #4 vertical mill

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