Same lathe same thread. Shotgun approach is the worst possible approach - especially when the topic starter assumes someone/everyone knows exactly what he is talking about.

End result is a non related mismash - even the topic starter has no idea how many different threads he started about the same thing.

John Oder

Hi dbeaman,

I'm glad the problem is solved. I should have looked further into the sump of my Model B, maybe the rotor was there - hmmmmm.

Johnny V

Actually, I asked this in one of my first posts, but I think it got lost in the mix.
What are people doing for way wipers? Mine have way wiper holders, but there is such a small inset on the bottom of the flat holder as well as the V-holder that it makes me wonder what actually fit under it? Are people just sandwiching felt in-between the holder and the carriage? Was it intended that something go under the holder? I can take closeup pics if needed.

Hi dbeaman,

I just used felt in mine (most practical). Purchased from McMaster Carr.

Johnny V

Johnny V,
Sorry, my question was not as clear as I wanted the first time around. Where did you put the felt you used for the wipers, was it between the carriage and the wiper holder, or was it between the wiper holder and the bed? ie. was the felt horizontal, or vertical, if that makes any sense?
Thanks
Dan

Ok,
I've got everything back together, and I've got oil shooting all over the upper headstock area and into the bearing pockets, so I'm good there. I replaced the felt filters that sit over the bearings and they seem to be doing their job as well.

First Problem:
I have been adjusting the clutch to try to optimize it, however, I'm running into some issues. When adjusted as "loose" as it goes, there is still so much drag that the spindle turns at full speed when the clutch is disengaged. When the clutch is engaged though the clutch slips under cutting load. When adjusted tighter, maybe mid way in the adjustment, I don't get any clutch slippage, however, the spindle drag is even worse, and I can practically take small cuts with the clutch disengaged. All of this indicates to me that the something is amiss. I'm not even sure the exact question here, however, there is obviously a clutch drag problem. The oil I have in it is ISO 68 machine oil from McMaster, I'm pretty sure that is what all the other P&W folks are currently using, yes? Any help or suggestions appreciated as always.

Second Problem:
On another front, in order to seal the clutch housing when I put it back on I used two layers of off white folders. Measuring them uncompressed gave me 0.019, and the old gasket that came off measured at 0.012. I figured I was fine as I would surely make up the difference in compression. However, there is a nice gear knock coming from that area, so I may need to get rid of one of those layers. My question here is, gear knock only occurs in too loose of a gear connection, ie. too much backlash, correct? What happens if there is not enough backlash, can this also give a knock, or is it just silent increased friction?

Thanks again,
Dan

I have a model b and have messed with the clutch alot I know I have the wrong oil in it and I get some drag when it is out but I always take it out of gear before messing with the chuck. Mine will stop completely with the brake on so I havent messed with it any more. I have worked on lots of clutches and favor the no slipping side of the coin as long as I can stop the spindle with the brake I am happy all of them seem to drag a little especialy lathes the mills have always stopped and stayed stopped.

Here's the skinny on the wiper:

The rear (inboard) diecast item has a recess for the felt, which (I'm guessing) starts at 1/4" thick
Then there's a hard brass scraper blade, sandwiched inside the outer (front, in this case) diecast cover.
The shape of this (and of the inside of the outer die casting) allows the felt to splay out a little along the bottom edge, as shown.
If this doesn't happen you'll have to use thicker felt.
If your diecast pieces are missing, it's a simple milling job from aluminium bar.

This combination of a thick, heavy felt wiper and a thin, preloaded scraper blade is pretty much as good as lathe wipers get. In some respects, I'd bet on it against modern practice.

If you clean the felt fairly regularly, and keep the carriage oil pump in good nick (you did realise it has its own?) so the felt remains soaked with oil, the efficacy could be as much as 50 years, maybe, unless you're turning lots of cast iron...

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That is excellent information Troup, and thank you very much for the photos as this is one of those cases where the photo explains everything I needed. My reason for confusion is I only have the outer piece on my lathe, looks like I'm missing the inboard piece and will have to make one, but at least now I know what the original looked like! May I assume the wiper on the other way covering the V is the same? I did know the apron had it's own oil pump, thank you though for pointing it out. I haven't cleaned the apron out yet, but it seems like oil pump is working thus far.
Cheers,
Dan

As for the clutch problem, it sounds as though either there's too much lost motion in the linkages, through wear, causing insufficient throw (I think the relevant drawing shows what the throw should be right at the clutch pack - 15/32" from memory) or you have warped clutch plates (as you will know, it's a multidisk wet clutch)

Boy, you must've read that while the ink was still wet!

GOod to know it helped.I can put it back together now :-)

All four wipers (headstock end front and rear, tailstock end front and rear) are the same. It's amazing how some idiot would lose the base pieces. Presumably your top screws are missing? There's nowhere other than the base piece for them to screw into.

If not, look more closely at the ones you have, you may have failed to notice the split, because everything I've shown is hidden inside if they come off in one piece.

As for gear pair backlash: it's only ever too little if, at some operating condition (eg differential thermal expansion) there would be zero or (horrors) negative clearance.
Zero is not great, as there needs to be room for particulate wear debris etc, so in practice one always aims for a small positive amount at all operating conditions.
If it's negative the input rotation (by hand) will feel notchy and nasty.

Troup, thanks for all the tips,

I just walked out to my shop (read, single car garage) and my outer wipers actually look quite different than yours. There are two locating pins in the vertical plane locating the piece. The only two screws are the horizontally offset ones. I've attached pics as well to show what I mean. Your outer piece looks like a totally different casting than the one I have. I guess it's possible someone made mine after another person threw the originals away, but they do look pretty original, locating pins and all. I'm 100% sure it is just a solid single piece, I had them off when I had disassembled the carriage and slides for cleaning and there is no way all the stuff you showed was hidden in there.

I've also noticed a few other minor differences between my model and some of the others I've seen pics of. The most notable one I've seen is the speed selection plate. Mine has speeds for a two speed motor, makes it a little harder to read quickly, I suppose with time I'll just learn which speed is where rather than looking, it is only eight speeds after all. I've also attached a pic of this.

This brings up an interesting point actually, my serial number is 1004. I'm not sure if this makes it one of the first sets manufactured or ...? Does anyone know what year this makes it? There was only a four or five year span for the 12x30 model Bs right, 41-45ish? Does anyone know how many 12x30 model Bs were made before they switched to the model C exclusively? And, does anyone know how the model B evolved during those 4 or 5 years? I can only assume it started off more like the 13x30 model B and then picked up features of the new model C as time went on?

Thanks again,
Dan

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Dan

My model B, serial no 1132, is exactly the same as yours with simple cast(?) plates where you would expect to find bed wipers and no provision for felts or other means of keeping things clean. Far as I can see mine too had never been off. The alignment dowels are pretty much flush with the outside of the plates so its unlikely that there ever was a felt trapped. The plates on mine appear to have been machined at an angle, possibly to trap a bead of oil under them acting as a hydrodynamic seal.

Mine is also a two speed motor version, as I recall it best guess as to date of mine was 1942-43 (ish) era.

Clive

In a word, no.

Both of the 1000/1100 type serials are very early, the serial book giving only two - 1521 for the end of 1942 and 2200 for the end of 1947.

I always have assumed the 12" B, which was simply an improved 13" that had been in production from the early twenties, was just a stop gap to help get small P&W lathes out the door for WW2.

The 12" "C" had been in production since 1935 and continued at least until 1961. Clearly, it was felt not enough of these were being made during WW2.

The serial book, unfortunately, fails to even mention the 13" B, so there is no way to tell how they were serialed, or if that format was simply continued for the improved version called the 12". As a for instance, the 16" B is listed with serials from 1927 to the end of 1935, with over 800 of them being made by then.

There is an excellent chance that like the other B lathes (16 and 20" discontinued about 1935), there was no 13" (or 12") production for several years in the thirties.

When I say serial book, I am referring to Serial Number Reference Book For Metalworking Machinery, published by Industrial Machinery News.

John Oder

My serial # is 1685, so presumably made in 1943.
Presumably it was a US Navy lathe, because it ended up as a resource in the repair shop at the US base at MacMurdo Sound, Antarctica.

I have been reading your messages with great interest. First of all, where did you get your manuals. I have only found source (machinerybrochures.com) and they offer an "operators's book" for $75. + s&h. Maybe I am just a cheapscate but that seems a little steep to me. I am trying to resolve several problems with my model B.
most of these problems are directly associated with a loading mishap when I went to pick up the machine. The old man who sold it at auction insisted on running the forklift and dumped the lathe on the operator's side as soon as he got it outside the shop door. It landed on rain soaked dirt but with all that weight, it took a good lick. It broke the carrage wheel, one of the speed selector levers and the thread selector. It also bent the clutch arm on the spindle side but it still works ok.
I installed a TECO VFD.
I am experienceing a considerable amount of resistance when I try to use the apron clutch control. It works but seems hard to shift in comparison to the almost fluid motion of everything else on the machine. Also, I am having a problem with both of the friction knobs. I removed the top of the carrage apron but I could not see any way to gain access to the shaft inside the longitudnal feed shaft. I could really make good use of a detail drawing of this if someone has one.
Like yours, my oil pump in the headstock doesn't work either but I want to try some of the suggestions offered to you before I drain it and remove the clutch. That clutch just scares me to death. I just don't understand how it works. But, like women, I think I like it anyway.
I would really enjoy a shout if you or anyone that might be aboard. Thanks unclelonnie

Member JohnnyV has scans of manuals linked on this forum

I think he also has scans of assembly drawings - I once posted a link to them is this section. The search function is your friend.

John Oder

unclelonnie,
The only manuals I have are the ones that I searched for and found here on the forum. From what I recall, there are operators manuals for both the model B and model C, and there are schematics for the model B and C as well. There are also brochures for both, but the brochures have limited info in them. I have both the B and C printed as there are some similarities. The schematics are a little hard to read on some of the pages because they were photocopied from microfilm, but they still help a lot. I don't have the links at this point, but I think a search will turn them up pretty easily.

As far as my oiling system goes, it is working fine now. The rotor and cap had fallen off and were laying in the bottom of the sump. Once I put them back on everything seemed to work okay again. I ended up replacing the 1/8" pipe fittings nearest the rotor also because mine were all bent to hell and they weren't aligned properly. If you do replace these pieces, make sure you get the correct lengths and elbows. In order for the spacing to be "proper" on mine so the down-tube lined up, I needed to have the F-F elbow be galvanized steel (slightly larger than it's brass counterpart), and the M-F elbow needed to be brass. The connecting tube between them can be either material. Disclaimer: this is what I found on mine, mileage may vary for others. Also, DO NOT use locktight on the screws holding the retainer for the rotor. I found this out the hard way. I thought I was so smart to use it, only to later find out that gummy pieces of locktight were making there way to the top oilers and plugging the holes, bad news. Everytime I run it right now I take the cover off to make sure the holes aren't blocked.

Removing the clutch isn't all that bad actually. Drain the oil (I stole someones idea (I think JohnnyV?) and put a 9" piece of 1" pipe with a cap on the oil drain hole so it can drain straight into a bucket). Remove the belts and pulley on the end of the line shaft, and it helps to remove the belt covers as well just for clearance sake. Remove the vertical oil pipe from the top cover area. Then you can just unbolt the whole clutch and shaft (5 allens on the clutch housing and two on the line shaft support). It helps to have/make a stubby 3/8 long handled allen key for this. The oil pump will become obvious once you take a look at it. If it's missing parts, make sure to look in the bottom of the sump! While your in there, it's not a bad idea to take some rags and clean out all the crap that has settled to the bottom of the sump.

The clutch is heavy by the way. I estimate it and the shaft to be ~90-100lbs so be careful when lifting. It's harder to get back on than it is to get it off. A second set of hand would be helpful as well for positioning it when putting it back on.

One last hint. When you do put it back on, the little bit of plumbing attached to the oil pump on top will need to be moved around before you push the clutch all the way on. You'll see what I mean when you do this. What I did, was align the lower pins, put in two of the lower bolts just a few threads and let it rest there so that I could look down through the top of the clutch between the housing and the headstock and physically reach in the with a long screwdriver and move the plumbing to the left so it lines up with the top oiling line (have the top cover off when you do all this and look down with a light). For final alignment of this plumbing after the clutch is bolted on tightly, I got a fairly long piece of 6 or 8 gauge wire and put a small hook on the end, then you can reach down from the top and pull this plumbing in line with the vertical oiling tube that now needs to be installed. This may sound like a lot of trouble, but the 27 tpi threads on the oil plumbing are really easy to cross thread, especially if they are new, so it's worth taking the time to get it right the first time.

Hope it all goes well.
Dan