Pratt and Whitney 13x30 model B

Need some advise and bad spindle bearing replacement.
Model 1395 sn 2029.

The angular contact bearing are just became very noisy and show .0045 thousands movement vertical with slight pressure and work finish is wavey
I have a parts manual for a 20 B model and operator manual for the 12 inch.
My questions are some directions on spindle removal and a source for a new set of bearings.
All other functions on the lathe work great. I just replaced the electric motor 5 months ago with a single phase motor.
Any documents or prints and sourcing for parts would greatly be appreciated.
I am not going to run the lathe and risk damage to the spindle until I effect the repair.
Thanks
Ken

Never heard of a plain bearing 13 having the angular contacts of a 12

I expect the 12 B has the same bearings as the 12 C - which are no longer made

The ones in the Thumbnail with the 65mm and 70mm bores - but I sure as hell would not attempt to buy such things until I knew exactly what was in there

ducati said:

Need some advise and bad spindle bearing replacement.
Model 1395 sn 2029.

The angular contact bearing are just became very noisy and show .0045 thousands movement vertical with slight pressure and work finish is wavey
I have a parts manual for a 20 B model and operator manual for the 12 inch.
My questions are some directions on spindle removal and a source for a new set of bearings.
All other functions on the lathe work great. I just replaced the electric motor 5 months ago with a single phase motor.
Any documents or prints and sourcing for parts would greatly be appreciated.
I am not going to run the lathe and risk damage to the spindle until I effect the repair.
Thanks
Ken

Click to expand...

Thanks for the bearing listing. Does anyone have a good print of the head stock assembly so I can figure out how to remove the spindle and see what type of bearings?
Thanks

ducati said:

Thanks for the bearing listing. Does anyone have a good print of the head stock assembly so I can figure out how to remove the spindle and see what type of bearings?
Thanks

Click to expand...

All I know of is the 12 X 30 brochure - its seems to show two of one size of those bearings on the front journal separated by a little distance and backed up by a ring nut - that in your case may have come loose

some directions on spindle removal

Click to expand...

Good luck on direct info, but the super line drawing in the 20 parts book can give an idea

You have to get the tight fitting cover with its pair of vertical joints up and off

The 20 shows its plain bearings but your 12 will have a ring nut in between the "bull" gear and the left most front spindle bearing - this is backed off incrementally as you move the spindle to the right .

Before you ever attempt moving the spindle, you'll also have to get the left end ring nut off along with the adjacent spindle gear

The spindle will be snug to tight in both front spindle bearings and likely tighter yet in bull gear. Not sure about right end bearing - could have some arrangement for floating. The several gears on the spindle other than bull gear are on a sleeve.

BEFORE I ever attempted any of the above, I would see if snugging up the ring nut adjacent the pair of front spindle bearings did any good

Spindle Update

Well I have some news. Found a company that had a parts manual called Machinery Support ( [email protected] a Mr. Mike Fanning). I Downloaded digital Copy. Also a company called locate ball bearing online ( 800-409-3632)
Had the bearings. NM 0214B. I ordered two. 926.10 each plus 35.00 S/H.
A N-14 bearing nut and W-14 bearing washer will be needed. The outboard bearing is a 5210 series.
I have the spindle assembley removed and on the work bench. Severe pitting was the noise maker. Not exactly sure why the bearing got loose. Appears since the factory install someone had been working on the spindle before me.
I plan to clean everything and flush the oil. Any idea on best oil to replenish with? Also, is there a procedure on preload for The bearings?
I removed the spindle by myself but may need son in law for the reinstall.
Any tips on the reinstall will be much appreciated.
Found some great pictures on the yahoo site of a total refurbish. Nice work.
I realize this is a lot of money to put into a 85 year old lathe. But,
All else is great so I can not fuss to much since I purchased it 25 years ago for 2500.00 and it is a pleasure to run.
Thanks
Ken



QUOTE=johnoder;3091317]All I know of is the 12 X 30 brochure - its seems to show two of one size of those bearings on the front journal separated by a little distance and backed up by a ring nut - that in your case may have come loose



Good luck on direct info, but the super line drawing in the 20 parts book can give an idea

You have to get the tight fitting cover with its pair of vertical joints up and off

The 20 shows its plain bearings but your 12 will have a ring nut in between the "bull" gear and the left most front spindle bearing - this is backed off incrementally as you move the spindle to the right .

Before you ever attempt moving the spindle, you'll also have to get the left end ring nut off along with the adjacent spindle gear

The spindle will be snug to tight in both front spindle bearings and likely tighter yet in bull gear. Not sure about right end bearing - could have some arrangement for floating. The several gears on the spindle other than bull gear are on a sleeve.

BEFORE I ever attempted any of the above, I would see if snugging up the ring nut adjacent the pair of front spindle bearings did any good[/QUOTE]

Thanks John.
Update .. I have the spindle removed. The bearings are indeed NM 0214B. They were pitted pretty badly.
All else looks fine. I found a 12X30 parts manual from a company named "Machinery Support" Mr. Mike Fanning.
I purchased the download version and its pretty good. I found the bearings from "Locate Ball Bearings" online
800-409-3632 ( larry ) cost was high 926.10 each plus shipping. I realize this is quite a bit of money to spend
on a lathe this old... but it has given me great service for 25 years and I love the machine. As far as I can tell
the only issue was the bearings..all other things were working great and I can not replace the lathe for 2k.
Since we had a flood last year and the oil was contaminated thru the clutch housing that would explain the severe pitting. I did
a number of flushes but I believe the damage was done prior to the flushing. Not sure why the bearing lock nut would have backed off some. I will do some more exploring. The spindle bearings take a N-14 bearing nut and a W-14 lock washer.
The out board bearings is a double row 5210 series. I plan a very through flushing and re-oiling. Any recommendations on oil type? I removed the spindle assembly by myself but plan on enlisting Son in Law for the installation. If anyone has a neat procedure to reinstall the spindle and pointers/ precautions on the final bearing pre-load procedure it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Ken

It is (or was originally) a slow speed spindle. Mobil DTE Heavy Medium or DTE Medium (ISO 68 and 46, respectively) will be found to be favorable by the machinery.
It seems likely you know the fill plug and gauge is down low on back of head stock.

I ran the Heavy Medium for over 20 years in the 12" Model C

A fairly good substitute would be the ISO 46 or 68 "hydraulic" oil at the auto/tractor supply - though with $1800 worth of bearings that you can hold in your hand, the real stuff would be but a pittance.

I hope everybody notices what real live precision class bearings cost these days

Be real sure that way down low oil pump is really delivering the oil upstairs

Update.
I have installed the new bearings and spindle. I cobbled together support for installing spindle back into the housing. It consisted
of a big wooden "U" that would fit under the cam lock flange. This was attached to a 3/4 square bar that would fit into the Aloris tool holder. The Spindle then was clamped to the U so I could move the carriage in or out without fear of it falling off the U support. The device was rather cobbled together and ugly but worked just fine for a one time install.
Adjusting the bearings for end play and preload is a tedious process. Following the "instructions" on the spindle print that Johnoder provided helped a great deal. I tried to sneak up on the end play first by removing and verifying the end play with an indicator. First using a tho type, the .0005, the .0001. Once I had the end play reduced to a few tenths then I would perform the Pre-load tightening to .001,.002, .003. After that step I would take a test cut. As the test cuts became a little heavier
I suspected some lateral movement because started getting slight chatter. To verify the movement "Looseness" I placed a .0005 indicator on back edge of the cam lock face. In fact with heavier cuts and feed the spindle assembly was starting to move and I would lose my preload. I took me awhile to figure out exactly the cause. When I tightened the outer most nut on the opposite end
of the spindle... the round nut that secures the gear to double row bearing/ sleeves etc. The nut was tight, but in reality had not
quite finished moving the gear to "lockup" against the double row bearing. This created a gap of .020-.030 thousands of lateral
movement. With very light cuts the force was not great enough to move the bearing. However with progressive heavier cuts it would move slightly. This is hard to explain but.. unless the assembly is tightened enough to move the double row bearing to face up with the rest of the assembly then the end play and pre-load settings at the spindle end will change and not repeat. Once I had secured
the nut properly... dink dink tight, instead of donk donk tight all things came together as expected.
Currently I have a consistent .0025 pre-load on the spindle bearings. Good oil flow, I plan to go back to using the lathe
and closely monitoring the performance. My run- out is .0005 on cam nose. Not sure if it will take some more tweaking but
for now she is cutting with a good finish.
Thanks to all for your help and advice.
Ken

When I have pulled a spindle from a lathe I will wrap something around the tailstock quill and grab it with the chuck. Then slide the tailstock body out to remove the spindle.

Also, There's often a dozen or more ball bearings in the supporting the higher speed shafts (not sure if this is true of the lathe you're working on, but all I have been into are this way). Instead of replacing these bearings with the same open bearings order them as -2RS fully sealed bearings.

Auto makers figured out in the late 80's that sealed bearings in oil sumps last indefinitely whereas the open ones die much, much faster.