Pratt & Whitney, tape o Matic

Mmfh · Sep 2, 2011

Hey everyone,

Not sure if I'm in the right forum with this machine so please tell me if I should be somewhere else with this.

Its a Pratt & Whitney, Tape "O" Matic

vertical milling machine

I've been looking for a cheap vertical mill for awhile. Cheaper the better, I'm willing to fix things to get it cheaper. Want a mill for a automotive machine shop. Will be used for many different things and possibly including flycutting cylinder heads and manifolds.

I ran across a mill unlike what I've seen before And not sure what you can do with it.
Can a person remove the tape feed control system, and make this a manual mill with power feeds, and keep it so its still worth while doing?? Also can a person Tram the head on this type head, thinking I want a thousand or two on that flycutter?

I thank you in advance for any advice you might have. Will probably buy this mill because of the price, if you guys think its a good idea.

Thanks

Mm

johnoder · Sep 2, 2011

I thank you in advance for any advice you might have

I am probably wrong to make a blanket statement, but the only ones I was around in the mid sixties were drills, not mills, if I recall correctly.

If you have absolutely nothing better to do, you could make a mill out of this by throwing away such things as the ball screws which are a disadvantage on a manual mill.

If you want a mill you can use, pass this by.

J.O.

Finegrain · Sep 2, 2011

It weighs 6,000# -- that's a heavy thing to have in the way if it's not earning its keep.

It's more of a jig borer than a milling machine. Morse taper spindle I think.

Regards.

Mike

Finegrain · Sep 2, 2011

Mmfh said:
Want a mill for a automotive machine shop. Will be used for many different things and possibly including flycutting cylinder heads and manifolds.

Keep your eyes open for a Cincinnati or Kearney Trecker vertical. These are the toys you want for big decking jobs. They do come available now and then, Portland more often than Seattle, and they usually sell for cheap since they're not a Bridgeport :willy_nilly:

.

Regards.

Mike

Mmfh · Sep 2, 2011

Thanks guys for the advice.

I will let that one go. I'm a little trigger happy as I found what I thought was the perfect mill, and it sold 20 minutes before I got there.

It was a Cincinnati, I believe it was called a toolmaker. Just a normal looking heavy duty vertical mill, no CNC, Except I think it had like over 22" from the spindle to the table, nm40 spindle, 3 hp, 54" table and all the drives were built into the machine. It had a cheap DRO as well which also worked.

Am I crazy for wanting to jump up and down for missing that at 3k It looked brand new and had a fair amount of tooling, vice included.

Probably won't see another one of those for awhile.

I've learned you have to have the money in hand, and willing to jump at all times, if you want one of those smokin deals.

Thanks for the advice on the Pratt!

Mm

Long Tom · Sep 2, 2011

Mmfh said:
Thanks guys for the advice.

I will let that one go. I'm a little trigger happy as I found what I thought was the perfect mill, and it sold 20 minutes before I got there.

It was a Cincinnati, I believe it was called a toolmaker. Just a normal looking heavy duty vertical mill, no CNC, Except I think it had like over 22" from the spindle to the table, nm40 spindle, 3 hp, 54" table and all the drives were built into the machine. It had a cheap DRO as well which also worked.

Am I crazy for wanting to jump up and down for missing that at 3k It looked brand new and had a fair amount of tooling, vice included.

Probably won't see another one of those for awhile.

I've learned you have to have the money in hand, and willing to jump at all times, if you want one of those smokin deals.

Thanks for the advice on the Pratt!

Mm

Hey, there's a Kearney Trecker for $1000 on the Oregon coast. Do a search on the "tools" section of Craigslist Eugene, with "milling machine" in the search box. That will turn it up.

Big machine!!

Long Tom · Sep 2, 2011

Here's a link, with pics:

milling machine

JHOLLAND1 · Sep 2, 2011

Tape-O-Matic

Tape-O-Matic | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

jCandlish · Sep 2, 2011

johnoder said:
... throwing away such things as the ball screws which are a disadvantage on a manual mill.

...

J.O.

Could you please expound upon the above statement. Why would ball screws be a disadvantage?

Cheers
<jbc>

johnoder · Sep 2, 2011

Too easy to move an axis makes for broken cutters on a manual mill.

J.O.

Mmfh · Sep 3, 2011

Long Tom said:
Here's a link, with pics:

milling machine

I've been looking at that machine off and on for a few months. I sent him an email asking a couple of questions, he did not reply.

Not sure what to do with something like that one though?

Mm

johnoder · Sep 3, 2011

Not sure what to do with something like that one though?

Its a 7000 lb vertical with a 50 taper spindle - ideal for your stated use.

3CH by K&T has 34" of table travel.

J.O.

Mmfh · Sep 3, 2011

johnoder said:
Its a 7000 lb vertical with a 50 taper spindle - ideal for your stated use.

3CH by K&T has 34" of table travel.

J.O.

Hey John,

One thing I don't know about on a machine where you can't tram the head.

How do you keep the back side of the cutter from making a witness mark on its way back around when using a flycutter? If I handed a guy a surfaced head and the fresh surface had the mark of the cutter coming around he would I'm sure want his money back.

Is there a way to deal with that?? Can you tram that machine a thousand or so?

Mm

johnoder · Sep 3, 2011

Can you tram that machine a thousand or so?

Nope - it a real no fooling vertical, not a wimpy BP.

Is there a way to deal with that??

Sure. Buy a head / block resurfacer which is made with spindle out of square.

Be advised that any shop doing engine machining will be at a disadvantage to competitors without all the engine machining equipment that is readily available to do what is wanted in the least time possible.

J.O.

Archie Cheda · Sep 3, 2011

A bit of history . . .

I hope I am not hi-jacking this thread by discussing the subject of the first post, even though the thread has gone off in a different direction. I think that everyone's advice was good -- the P&W Tape-o-matic is probably not a good machine for general milling purposes.

I first saw one of these in operation when I worked as a machinist in 1973 and I own one (in basket-case mode). They were primarily designed to be a drilling machine. The massive geared-head (with variable speed pulleys) can be moved up and down the column to extend the range of the quill. The pneumatic quill "Z" with numerically-controlled "X" & "Y" are the old 2-1/2-D form of numerical control -- the table positions rapidly to point-to-point locations and the sensitive quill motion allows the drill to adapt to material variations and tool sharpness. I know that this does not sound sophisticated, but there are a lot of holes in manufactured goods and this machine was the first great leap forward in automating putting holes into things using tape-programmed motion.

My P&W has an Erickson Quick Change spindle which takes NTMB-30 tool-holders. I have the manuals and they state that the machine may be used for light milling, but remember that it will only make linear cuts in X, Y, and at a 45-degree angle. The original control has dozens of 3x5 sized cards for all the electronics and the +/- 12 VDC power is supplied by a 3/4 hp three-phase motor driving two automotive-style alternators. (The Tape-o-matic for sale appears to be without its control, so it would be a stretch to say that "it does work" as it would do nothing without a control.)

The table motion is accomplished by allowing fractional horse-power motors to drive the ball lead-screws in a rapid traverse mode while rotary encoders keep track of the position. Once the location is near, the rapid motors are cut and a stepper motor steps the lead-screw until the encoder says it is on position. This hybrid approach allowed both rapid and accurate positioning long before the argument between stepper motors and servo motors got going.

One more bit of trivia: the bed and column are steel weldments. I do not know if P&W did this first, but they were "early to the party".

Someday I hope to get mine back in operation controlled by a notebook computer, driven from a CAD model. Its best use will still be for putting in holes, with accuracy and speed.

Archie

Mmfh · Sep 3, 2011

Archie Cheda said:
I hope I am not hi-jacking this thread by discussing the subject of the first post, even though the thread has gone off in a different direction. I think that everyone's advice was good -- the P&W Tape-o-matic is probably not a good machine for general milling purposes.

I first saw one of these in operation when I worked as a machinist in 1973 and I own one (in basket-case mode). They were primarily designed to be a drilling machine. The massive geared-head (with variable speed pulleys) can be moved up and down the column to extend the range of the quill. The pneumatic quill "Z" with numerically-controlled "X" & "Y" are the old 2-1/2-D form of numerical control -- the table positions rapidly to point-to-point locations and the sensitive quill motion allows the drill to adapt to material variations and tool sharpness. I know that this does not sound sophisticated, but there are a lot of holes in manufactured goods and this machine was the first great leap forward in automating putting holes into things using tape-programmed motion.

My P&W has an Erickson Quick Change spindle which takes NTMB-30 tool-holders. I have the manuals and they state that the machine may be used for light milling, but remember that it will only make linear cuts in X, Y, and at a 45-degree angle. The original control has dozens of 3x5 sized cards for all the electronics and the +/- 12 VDC power is supplied by a 3/4 hp three-phase motor driving two automotive-style alternators. (The Tape-o-matic for sale appears to be without its control, so it would be a stretch to say that "it does work" as it would do nothing without a control.)

The table motion is accomplished by allowing fractional horse-power motors to drive the ball lead-screws in a rapid traverse mode while rotary encoders keep track of the position. Once the location is near, the rapid motors are cut and a stepper motor steps the lead-screw until the encoder says it is on position. This hybrid approach allowed both rapid and accurate positioning long before the argument between stepper motors and servo motors got going.

One more bit of trivia: the bed and column are steel weldments. I do not know if P&W did this first, but they were "early to the party".

Someday I hope to get mine back in operation controlled by a notebook computer, driven from a CAD model. Its best use will still be for putting in holes, with accuracy and speed.

Archie

Hey Archie,

Interesting info on the P&W. You make me want to see it run, if you get yours going and feel like making a video I would like to see it run.

Mm

Mmfh · Sep 3, 2011

This 3ch by K&T.

Has anybody here run one of these? It looks like a monster, the way its built and the heavy spindle, I'm going to take a look at it if I can get ahold of this guy.

I'm wondering about the drives on this machine. X and Y actually.

How much control do you have as far as speed goes? Is there a fairly wide range and how smooth is it going up and down. I guess what I mean is if you slow it way down, can you still get a nice even pass?

I was doing some work on a machine similar probably 30 years ago, I noticed if you were going at its slowest speed it would get a little jumpy and you would see it in the cut.

Never did figure out why it did that, took it apart and lubed everything and knocked of any burrs and high spots everywhere and it always did the same thing. Are they all like this??

Thanks very much!

Mm

johnoder · Sep 3, 2011

Are they all like this??

Not unless something is wrong with them.

Normal feed rates were 32 changes from 3/8" to 90" per minute.

Normal spindle speeds were 24 changes from 15 to 1500 (per 1957 catalog)

J.O.

tjs42 · Sep 4, 2011

I have a 3H vertical you are welcome to come by and look at. Just like the 3ch except an older model (ww2) and has less clearance between the spindle and table. Send me a private message and I send you my email. I'm in Portland and my shop is off Colombia Blvd in NE.

gbent · Sep 4, 2011

Mmfh said:
How do you keep the back side of the cutter from making a witness mark on its way back around when using a flycutter?

You figure out which way the head is out, and feed with the lowest side first. The bad part is it may mean throwing the chips at the operator. Otherwise you allow the cutter to feed completely off the part. This would work well on V8 or smaller heads, but there may not be enough room for this method on an inline 6.

The way you tram the head is by scraping (reworking the slide).

Pratt & Whitney, tape o Matic

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Stainless

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