Radial Arm Drill Press Cincinnati-Bickman Model 3A - Purchase Opinions Needed

I've found an old Cincinnati-Bickman Model 3A Radial Arm Drill press from a local retired fab shop that I might be interested in buying. Unfortunately, I'm new to machining and don't know much about RA drill presses. I won't be able to test the machine as the owner recently sold his shop and the press is sitting on a trailer. The owner indicated that its a great machine and comes with large number of bits 2" and down (morse taper with collet bits). Could I get your opinion on this RA drill press and what you think it's worth. I'm going to retire in a few years and am looking to set up a hobby metal shop. Thanks for your time and I look forward to your recommendations and comments.

Well I'll throw in my opinion. If it was anywhere near me and at a halfway reasonable price, I'd buy it. Do I have a need for it, not right now but I'd find one. It looks like a great old machine in decent condition, rescue it, give it a good home and some work to do.

Craig

C Clement said:

Well I'll throw in my opinion. If it was anywhere near me and at a halfway reasonable price, I'd buy it. Do I have a need for it, not right now but I'd find one. It looks like a great old machine in decent condition, rescue it, give it a good home and some work to do.

Craig

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What do you think is a "reasonable" price for this RA drill press?

Its real old and its heavy and it will take up a lot of room. Is your hobby metal shop going to do heavy fabrication work? If not, I'd skip it. There are many other pieces of iron you will use more.

If you make an offer, consider the cost of getting it in place and wired in your price. Its heavy, and high centered. It wants to lay down very badly.

Given its age, if I didn't already have one and wanted to do the type of work that needs a RAD, I'd probably offer $500, and $10/drill for HSS drills over 1" diameter. $2-$3 for drills not marked HSS.

Keep your eyes open and you should be able to find one 50 years newer for a little more money.

If you aren't already retired I think that RAD is twice your age.

landrand said:

What do you think is a "reasonable" price for this RA drill press?

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I like the drill. Is the seller asking for an offer and wont say what he wants. Tell him you are interested and want to know his bottom line
If he wont give you a price he is fishing. I don't play that game.
If you know his price say so, you may get more response here as far as to high or fair price.
I'm a bit of a sucker for cool old machines. I think ebay and dealer prices would be from $1,500 to $2,500.It looks nice.
That's probably hard to get a comparison because of its age
Offer $500

mllud22 said:

I like the drill. Is the seller asking for an offer and wont say what he wants. Tell him you are interested and want to know his bottom line
If he wont give you a price he is fishing. I don't play that game.
If you know his price say so, you may get more response here as far as to high or fair price.
I'm a bit of a sucker for cool old machines. I think ebay and dealer prices would be from $1,500 to $2,500.It looks nice.
That's probably hard to get a comparison because of its age
Offer $500

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The seller is asking $700 for the drill and is including a bunch of bits 2" and below.

To me that's fair. As said above they are very top heavy. If you buy it lower the arm all the way and make sure the arm swng clamp is tight so it cant swing over while moving it.. Strap the arm in place for transport.

Edit. Bolt it to your floor .

I like radial arm drills but if I was starting to build a home shop I wouldn't normally start with one. Maybe a lathe or a milling machine. They can catch out the unwary in more ways than you can imagine. Over here it's mandatory to have a " Jet-Brake " on the spindle. I'm not an electrician but I understand this injects DC into an AC motor.

I don't know much about prices in the US but that price seems reasonable to me.

Regards Tyrone.

I like radial arm drills but if I was starting to build a home shop I wouldn't normally start with one. Maybe a lathe or a milling machine. They can catch out the unwary in more ways than you can imagine. Over here it's mandatory to have a " Jet-Brake " on the spindle. I'm not an electrician but I understand this injects DC into an AC motor.


I'm sure that drill isn't OSHA compliant. buyer should heed warning.
The spindle will grab and swing a big piece of steel. Secure the work piece and be aware.

landrand said:

I've found an old Cincinnati-Bickman Model 3A Radial Arm Drill press from a local retired fab shop that I might be interested in buying. Unfortunately, I'm new to machining and don't know much about RA drill presses. I won't be able to test the machine as the owner recently sold his shop and the press is sitting on a trailer. The owner indicated that its a great machine and comes with large number of bits 2" and down (morse taper with collet bits). Could I get your opinion on this RA drill press and what you think it's worth. I'm going to retire in a few years and am looking to set up a hobby metal shop. Thanks for your time and I look forward to your recommendations and comments.

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Sez BickFORD (as usual) right on the brass,

Dunno where you got BickMAN.. twice.

But if you are even one-tenth-of-one-percent as casual as that about use of the machine itself it will not take you prisoner. It will destroy your workpiece, break taps or drills well above an inch, maim you, or even kill you, and not even bump a blip back up the powerline as a notch in its gunbelt for the trouble.

Hobby machine if your hobby is full-sized or at least 40% scale steam rail or such.

And BTW? This one is a mere runt.

The grownups started at around eight feet and went up above twenty feet. Think plate bridges, steamship and warship fab and their big plates.

Mostly, you will play b****y Hell acquiring and sharpening the twist-drills it needs to do its best work.

Best be working THICK material as well. Breakout of a 2" -plus helical in 1/8"minus plate wants someone else holding the camera as well as your beer. Annulars? Bring money for their re-inforcements.

Nor can it PLAY well with a boring head as mills can do. One hole. Straight in. Same size as the drill, Repeat straight down. All day. All year. Many years. ELSE go pound sand.

Radials don't complain if you try side-loading their spindle bearings. They just move over. Each go.

Not a hobby machine.
Depending on the condition and quantity the drills may be worth more than the Bickford radial drill.
Looks to be newer than 1919. The enclosure of the drilling head is a little different and may include
a feature for tapping.

Finally, someone took a photo of the gearbox faceplate

This is a small radial, likely a 4-foot as in 48" of travel
on the radial arm.
John

Thanks for all the excellent posts about this Cincinatti "Bickford" radial arm drill press. I admit, I wasn't thinking about the safety factor in the operation of one of these beasts. I now realize, if you mess up there is great potential for a major accident. I fully understand the danger, but is it possible to own and occasionally operate one of these beasts without getting killed or maimed. This may sound stupid, but what about the possiblity of having a small platform to stand on above the work so if something were to happen, I wouldn't be standing in the way of a large rotating plate. I already have a platform for my forklift that I could use for that.

I have a large metal building (50'x100') so space for the RAD shouldn't be a problem. Although I don't yet have a milling machine and a metal lathe, purchasing these tools is on my to do list. Unfortunately, I just haven't found a good deal within a decent driving distance to pick one up yet. Eventually, they will be in my shop. This Cincinatti-Bickford drill is only an hour away and the owner indicated he can deliver. Thats a huge convenience for me.

I have a small farm and sawmill and utilize several pieces of heavy equipment (backhoe, dump truck, big forklift, 100 HP farm tractors, 10 Ton and 15 Ton gooseneck trailers, International 7300 and Ford F700 trucks, etc). Although I indicated previously that my metal working would be primarily for myself, I do plan to work with or build things for my sawmill operation and farm heavy equipment. I just bought a 1" thick 6'x 10' welding table top and I thought I could use the RAD to drill 1" clamping holes.

My question is: will the occasional use of a radial arm drill press make my life easier for the next 20-30 years so as to justify paying $700 for one?

landrand said:

Thanks for all the excellent posts about this Cincinatti "Bickford" radial arm drill press. I admit, I wasn't thinking about the safety factor in the operation of one of these beasts. I now realize, if you mess up there is great potential for a major accident. I fully understand the danger, but is it possible to own and occasionally operate one of these beasts without getting killed or maimed. This may sound stupid, but what about the possiblity of having a small platform to stand on above the work so if something were to happen, I wouldn't be standing in the way of a large rotating plate. I already have a platform for my forklift that I could use for that.

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I suppose if we WORKED HARD at it we could think of something more stupid? How about Russian roulette with a single shot 12-bore?



Seriously... ran a 3-fot Cannedy-Otto, a five-foot ATW, and an 8-foot ATW for YEARS, never hurt meself. As with yer sawmill - you just have to know the dangers and operate safely.

That spinning plate? It isn't MEANT to be ALLOWED to spin. Forget a vise. Just not seen on radial very often. Bolts exist. Heavy chain is your friend on a radial's table sides, much as it is on a load of logs. So is a welder. Need a cleat or angle for safe work holding? Weld one on. Cut it off, later.

You have the space. You WILL learn safe use on the evidence you have survived a sawmill.

Delivery is a PITA on even a small radial, but you have a solution.

Caveat on drills and such for it though. I've got around $1,000 invested already in "nose art" for my 5 MT "column" drill and probably as much more yet to go, just spread-out over more years.

If you've got even a modest set of drills with it, you are way ahead.

I'd have it paid-for and scheduled inbound already!

Standing on a platform should not be an option.
Correct clamping of the work and proper feed rate coupled with the rpm specific to the drill diameter
is a better start point.
That table might look convenient but it may be a handicap. The original work table had t-slots for clamping hardware to
secure the work. Ask about the original table. That round table may be for c-clamps only. A hole drilled and tapped into the round table for a threaded rod is a good way to butt up the workpiece so it does not spin. A drilled and tapped hole pattern for clamping of the work will do in lieu of a t-slot table. Blocks of steel to elevate the work above the table and avoid drilling into the table.
This drill will make short work of those 1" holes. Use a center drill for a small depth as a starter hole.
The radial arm will swing 360 degrees so that invites flexibility for working away from the table area.
John

I have 5 acres with a skid steer \tractor and numerous implements and my old fosdick radial is a blessing. You even see potential for making and modifying thing when you have tools. All our worlds are going in different directions.
With what you described and the small investment I believe the drill will pay off. Laying out and drilling a motor mount for the saw mill will recoup a good portion of the investment. Price having one fabricated..
The reason a lot of old lathes come out of barns is farmers used them. Even if used once a year its there when needed.
When I think about all the holes I drilled by hand my arms ache. When its to big for the drill press put it on the radial..

As said above, the only trick to working with a radial is to just make sure the work is secure. If you can run a backhoe and sawmill without maiming yourself and others, this will not be a problem. The machine at work has a home made table. I use heavy 8 and 12" C clamps to hold work to the table and have never had work slip, even on near 2" holes in steel. I also drilled and tapped sets of holes in it for common parts I work with and to hold a large drill press vise that I bolt onto it for smaller work. Just use common sense and be careful.

I would definitely think you could make great use of it, given your equipment. It's not the only tool to have in the shop, but when it comes to drilling holes in flat bar or angle to make an adapter for a 3pt hitch, it's fantastic. I have even used mine with a boring head to do large diameter holes that I had no drill large enough to do the job (like a 6" hole in 1/4" aluminum). In that case, I chain drilled a circle of holes 1/4", broke it out and cleaned up roughly with a die grinder, then clamped on the table and slicked it up in a few passes.

As for price, I'd offer him $500. That is indeed an 80 or 90yr old machine. Very slow spindle speeds, so it's useless in a modern machine shop. Even my 1929 Fosdick goes to 1200rpm and by WWII, they were running up around 2000rpm. This one tops out at 700rpm, so it's really sized for nothing smaller than 3/8" in steel. It's honestly worth about $200, but it does have a pile of drills with it. I agree that the drills are worth as much or more than the machine.

Be prepared for moving 6,000lbs. They are deceptively heavy and easy to tip. Drop the arm as far as possible before disconnecting and figure a way to secure the arm to the table so it can't swing under any circumstances.

Mike C. said:

As for price, I'd offer him $500. That is indeed an 80 or 90yr old machine. Very slow spindle speeds, so it's useless in a modern machine shop. Even my 1929 Fosdick goes to 1200rpm and by WWII, they were running up around 2000rpm. This one tops out at 700rpm, so it's really sized for nothing smaller than 3/8" in steel. It's honestly worth about $200, but it does have a pile of drills with it. I agree that the drills are worth as much or more than the machine.

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I verbally offered to pay $700 for the drill and bits and am awaiting to see when the owner can deliver. Did I pay too much? I would assume that just the scrap value would be somewhere around $400.

As a hobby RAD press, is there any issue with only having a max RPM of 700. Is there any negatives to drilling slower than the recommended RPM for metal thickness/drill bit size (for both steel and aluminum)?

I just watched a youtube video in which the owner was talking about his older Carlton RAD press. He indicated the minimum RPM capability was 100 and he said he wished it could go slower for the big stuff. It looks like this Cincinatti-Bickford 3A can go down to 36 RPM.

Here's an American Hole Wizard RAD for sale in the area. The owner is asking $2,200, so it's a bit more expensive than the Cincinatti-Bickford. Haven't physically seen the machine, but I did talk to the owner about it. The owner idicates is a 1960's vintage and hasn't been used much in the last 20 years. It would come with a few #4 MT bits with the largest being about 1 1/4". He said the machine does have a small oil leak and should be an easy fix. Here's some specs for the RAD?

American hole wizard radial drill press. 5 hp 220/440 volt 3ph motor. 8 inch column with 5' arm. Max height is 54" spindle to table. #4 spindle taper with 11" of travel. 6 feeds from ,004-025, speeds 50-1500 rpm. base is 5'3" x 33".

landrand said:

I verbally offered to pay $700 for the drill and bits and am awaiting to see when the owner can deliver. Did I pay too much? I would assume that just the scrap value would be somewhere around $400.

As a hobby RAD press, is there any issue with only having a max RPM of 700. Is there any negatives to drilling slower than the recommended RPM for metal thickness/drill bit size (for both steel and aluminum)?

I just watched a youtube video in which the owner was talking about his older Carlton RAD press. He indicated the minimum RPM capability was 100 and he said he wished it could go slower for the big stuff. It looks like this Cincinatti-Bickford 3A can go down to 36 RPM.

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$700 is the high side. Delivery justifies the price if the seller can deliver safely. The value of the drills could be a pig in a poke as we do not know the condition, sizes, and quantity.

Slow rpm means less heat is generated, the cutting edge lasts longer, you might not need coolant to lubricate & cool the drill.
High speed can torch the drill without coolant. Recommended cutting speed is to maximize profit-save time.

That Hole Wizard is going to sit for quite a while at $2,200. Very nice drill at a pipe dream price. Not a chip around the drill so that shop is not using it.
John

I expect the American is a 9", I don't recall seeing American making an 8". The year of manufacture is on the end of the arm with the serial number. The 3' arm version of the 9" weighs 6,000# without the box table. In spite of the coarse feed in low gear of .004, the American will serve as a fair spindle for a boring head. It does have a lock slot in the spindle.

If it checks out ok, I'd personally rather have the American at $2200 than the Cincinnati at $700.