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Stuck / frozen gib on brown and sharpe no.2 universal light mill!!!

Msjamesray

Plastic
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
I have an old b&s no.2 universal mill and the table gib is dead frozen, I have had no luck at freeing the thing. I have been working with it for a week to try to free it and have had no luck. I have tried oil, heat and hydraulic porta power kit as well as a 20lb sledge hammer. I can see which is the small end so that tells me which way it needs to move to come free. Since I'm having no luck I thought I would see if anyone on here has ever successfully freed one and How? I have pounded on the small end with the 20lb sledge and a brass rod, I have heated the saddle while chilling the table with ice and I have tried brute force I currently have about 7500 psi just sitting on it I have had the hydraulics pumped up since last night and periodically walk by and lightly tap on it with a small ball peen hammer. I have been measuring the amount of table overhang on the right side since I started working on it and the measurement hasn't changed at all and frankly I'm running out of ideas that won't result in my new to me mill becoming new to the scrap yard.... fingers crossed....
 
How did it happened to get stuck in the first place?
Since I don't see you mentioning any penetrating oil, I assume this was a working machine and not something that sat unused for several years.
If, I'm wrong and it is indeed a partially rusted machine, or even if there is the risk of having congealed oil on the ways, I would strongly suggest soaking the area with break cleaner, then Kroil for at least one week or two before applying any force.
If the machine was operational and the gib got stuck, I'd suspect complete lack of lubrication and serious galling. Even in this case, penetrating oils are your best bet.

Paolo
 
I'm not really sure how it got stuck to start with. This is the story I was told by the guy I got it from. The machine had a job clamped on it and was working just fine, the machinist using it shut it down and left to go to lunch. When he came back from lunch he turned it on and continued his job and on the first power feed cut it just locked up. They claim that they tried to get it free for all of about 3 hours with no luck so they moved it into their Storage area and it sat there for a month or so before I picked it up. At least the storage area was a climate controlled area like the shop it was in. My best guess is that maybe someone bumped into it with something but I'm not really sure. So you think I should remove the hydraulic force and hit it with brake parts cleaner and then some kroil huh ?
 
I don't know what the issue is, could have a table clamp the goes through the gib? Never was it said if you have the lead screw out yet so don't know it it's the nut locking up there either. I can only imagine using a 20Lbs. sledge hammer and a machine tool not being very compatible. Myself I would try to get a thorough understanding of the way the machine is put together and then try to take it apart. Those mills were fairly popular so maybe someone will show up with some information such as drawings?
Dan
 
Some drawings would be very nice, I have studied the parts in the back on the manual and have removed everything that I thought might be interference on the gib moving but there is 1 little part I'm not sure about. On the front of the saddle there is the table lock. I removed the little positioning screw beside it which allowed me to unscrew the lock and remove it. I looked in the hole with my bore camera and there is a cross drilled hole with a pin in it but I can't find where the other end of it runs and I can't get anything in there to try to make it move.
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I also noticed that the gib adjustment screw on the large end that tightens the gib was broke off. I have already removed the remaining part of the bolt but other than that I don't see anything that should be holding on the gib. By the way the lead screw and tge power feed shaft has been pulled and are both free of the table.
 
Msjamesray,
I have a B&S mill that looks just like yours. I would
encourage you to patiently work through this issue as they are
great old machines. I use mine a lot. After studying the pics
I'll add my 2 cents. First off use the KROIL, it is the best,
sometimes it needs a few days to creep in. Second I think your
trying to move the table the wrong direction, If you put the
gib adjusting screw back in the right (small) side that will
prevent the gib from getting tighter. Then work at moving the
table to the right. If you get even a small amount of movement
tighten the adjustment which would try to push the gib out and
loose. The machine has an oil groove running the length of
the table and if you could get a small tube in there from each
end to shoot the Kroil deep in there might help. The groove is
on the bottom. Good luck.
spaeth
 
Msjamesray,
The gizzmo on the front left of the saddle that you removed
is a table lock but I don't think it works by tightening the gib.
When it is turned to the right it also locks out the power
feed so it cannot be engaged while the table is snugged up.
I'm not sure how it bares against the table as it is lower
than the gib. Perhaps it uses a cam or clamp action. Maybe
shoot some Kroil in there as well and put a small pin in the
bigger of the two holes and tap on it a bit and see if anything
moves.
spaeth
 
Forrest Addy gave a very concise explanation a while back for a fix of a similar situation on a Bridgeport. Did the gib move past it's adjuster/s, or is it still set where it was? I'm assuming the problem was caused by a lack of lube combined with the fact that the table was brought to the end of it's travel, where it is least worn. This allowed close contact between dry surfaces and caused one or more areas of contact to gaul. If the gib broke free and was allowed to slide further inward, this would compound the problem hugely because it would be acting like a wedge and forcing ALL mating surfaces into contact with a huge amount of force, literally tons of pressure. If the gib has not slipped, it may be only a small area gauled toward the end of the table. It looks to me that you are trying to move the table the wrong way, but then again I'm not sure which way the gib wants to move to loosen. I think my approach would be to get penetrating oil into as much space as I can, then follow a procedure similar to what Forrest outlined in the Bridgeport thread, which I'll try to find and provide a link for. That may mean removing the saddle from the knee if that is possible, in order to effectively heat the area between the dovetail.
It'd be interesting to get Forrest's input here, as well as Richard King.
 
If you have beat on the small end of the gib that savagely, you have probably peened it up so big that it will never come loose. It is essentially riveted in place now. Good luck with it.
 
If I am understanding the picture right, I seems you still have the leadscrew in it. I would take that out. Also, are you pushing the table towards the small end
of the gib?? Don't give up the ship!

regards,

Jon P.
 
Some close ups of the big an small end of the gib would be good to help understand what we have here. (be a detective) I suspect: The table is not worn on the extreme ends of the table and with the table where it is at there gib is jammed tight on the taper. I am not sure youmoved the table out there or it has been stuck there all this time. Using a brass punch did nothing accept ding up the end of the gib as Mike said.

The best thing someone can use when driving out a gib is a rectangle cold or hot rolled piece of flat bar stock a little smaller then the gib and you use a sledge hammer. The bar-stock as short as possible. You could also use a 1 x 1 square and mill down one end thinner to slide into the slot on the small end. If you try to move the table back be sure to screw in the small end gib screw so it doesn't jam in deeper.

On some gibs I have drilled and tapped a hole in the big end and used a slide hammer or a long piece of threaded rod mounted through a plate bolted to the end of the table (big end of gib) You need to get a friend or 2 to help hold the bar with gloves and do a blacksmith tap and hit on the bar with a sledge hammer while pressure is applied to the portapower and pull out screw or slide hammer. The end of the small end may have to be ground down if you can get in there too....take some pictures of both sides. Another tip would be to scrape off the burnt paint as you may have some hidden sets screws.
 
I have successfully broken the table and gib loose without any damage!!! I have kept the hydraulics on it for almost 2 weeks and 3 or 4 times a day I have walked by and just tapped on everything with a small ball peen hammer and kept adding oil to it and tightening up on the hydraulics. Tonight I walked out to it and the hydraulics were kinda loose so I pumped on it and I heard a pop and the table jumped a little I slid the hand crank on and it spun nicely and the gin and table slid all the way to the end and I took my little piece of brass flat bar and hammer and tapped the small end of the gin and it dang near shot out across the shop so I proceeded with removing the table and started cleaning and noticed a small amount of galling on the horizontal portion of the rear right of the saddle and in matching location on the table but other than that everything so far is looking good. Now for a little info on how I had everything set up and hopefully to provide some answers on what worked for to hopefully help others in the future.... When I got this machine it had been sitting in a shops storage room for a few months and the story I was told was that it was working before lunch and after, it wasnr... sounds kinda fishy if yoy ask me but...... so I get the machine to the shop and gave a kinda decent decreasing bath while on the Trailer out in the sun and got it a little less slippery to handle to get in the shop. We got it moved in and went ahead and rough leveled it. The the investigating started. Upon cleaning and close up pics I noticed that it looks as if someone had attempted to drift the gin from left to right which was indeed tightening it. They had the table almost all the way to the left and the gin was protruding flush to the right end of the table. My first thought was to use the adjuster bolt on the small end to drive it out. But this turned out to be ehh not so good of an idea. Whomever was trying to free the table in the past was also beating on it on the small end but had flattened out the end just enough to be catching on the table so when tightening the bolt it would just flex away from the gin. So the decision was made which almost brought tears to my eyes to take the angle grinder and just kiss the end of the gin to get it back to shape. I then took a file and cleaned it as best I could so as not to scratch when sliding it out. Then I took the rosebud to it and got it hot enough to bake off the paint and any krud and I then sprayed oil everywhere I could find a spot to put it. Man... talk about some smoke... lol but any way then I took my 1lb ball peen hammer and tapped all over it and applied more oil multiple times daily for a week and a half while all the time since heating keeping it under about 7000 lbs of hydraulic pressure in the direction of pulling the large end of the taper out of the ways and keeping the small end adjuster screw holding the from possibly moving farther in. I left the lead screw in because I was using it to help keep a small amount of tension in the same direction as the hydraulics so that if it was loose I would know there had been some movement. 1 time a day I would take my 20lb sledge hammer and give it a couple of taps in the same direction as all the applied force. And tonight I went to check the lead screw and it wasnt as tight as I had left it. I pumped 1 time on the hydraulics and the whole table jumped enough to allow the hydraulic cylinder to drop from underneath the table. I was then able to use the lead screw to move the table farther down and just had to sit there and smile as I watched the gib slide with the table. I moved it about an inch or 2 and then used my brass flat bar to drift the small end of the gin and it shot free. I was then able to run the table until I ran out of lead screw and then slide it off onto my rolling work cart with a piece of plywood on it. Once I got it off I managed to get it on my work table and flip it surface side down and noticed that even if I had wanted to remove the lead screw before the table I wouldn't have been able to. There are 2 thrust bearings that will not clear the lead screw mount on the left end of the table and the screw won't free fit through the bearings so the would not allow that. I'll upload some pics in the daylight tomorrow to help clarify why I did the things i did. But for tonight I'm just gonna sit back and be thankful that all went well so far without breaking anyone or anything, man that table is heavy.....
 
Congratulations!! It sounds as if you are a good detective plus asking on here for help make the difference. The spray, wait and tap with hammer is something we do as it has worked for me for years. Your last thread reminded me of something I wrote when I started to type here and Phil or Mactool said please paragraph a few times to break you the post up to make it read easier. Good Job. Rich
 
Nice Save. You will really like this old machine.
For a light machine it will still handle a beefy cut
and get some real work done. Here are some pics of
a recent project.
spaeth


DSCN2060.jpg DSCN2061.jpg DSCN2068.jpg
 
I have successfully broken the table and gib loose without any damage!!! I have kept the hydraulics on it for almost 2 weeks and 3 or 4 times a day I have walked by and just tapped on everything with a small ball peen hammer and kept adding oil to it and tightening up on the hydraulics. Tonight I walked out to it and the hydraulics were kinda loose so I pumped on it and I heard a pop and the table jumped a little I slid the hand crank on and it spun nicely and the gin and table slid all the way to the end and I took my little piece of brass flat bar and hammer and tapped the small end of the gin and it dang near shot out across the shop so I proceeded with removing the table and started cleaning and noticed a small amount of galling on the horizontal portion of the rear right of the saddle and in matching location on the table but other than that everything so far is looking good. Now for a little info on how I had everything set up and hopefully to provide some answers on what worked for to hopefully help others in the future.... When I got this machine it had been sitting in a shops storage room for a few months and the story I was told was that it was working before lunch and after, it wasnr... sounds kinda fishy if yoy ask me but...... so I get the machine to the shop and gave a kinda decent decreasing bath while on the Trailer out in the sun and got it a little less slippery to handle to get in the shop. We got it moved in and went ahead and rough leveled it. The the investigating started. Upon cleaning and close up pics I noticed that it looks as if someone had attempted to drift the gin from left to right which was indeed tightening it. They had the table almost all the way to the left and the gin was protruding flush to the right end of the table. My first thought was to use the adjuster bolt on the small end to drive it out. But this turned out to be ehh not so good of an idea. Whomever was trying to free the table in the past was also beating on it on the small end but had flattened out the end just enough to be catching on the table so when tightening the bolt it would just flex away from the gin. So the decision was made which almost brought tears to my eyes to take the angle grinder and just kiss the end of the gin to get it back to shape. I then took a file and cleaned it as best I could so as not to scratch when sliding it out. Then I took the rosebud to it and got it hot enough to bake off the paint and any krud and I then sprayed oil everywhere I could find a spot to put it. Man... talk about some smoke... lol but any way then I took my 1lb ball peen hammer and tapped all over it and applied more oil multiple times daily for a week and a half while all the time since heating keeping it under about 7000 lbs of hydraulic pressure in the direction of pulling the large end of the taper out of the ways and keeping the small end adjuster screw holding the from possibly moving farther in. I left the lead screw in because I was using it to help keep a small amount of tension in the same direction as the hydraulics so that if it was loose I would know there had been some movement. 1 time a day I would take my 20lb sledge hammer and give it a couple of taps in the same direction as all the applied force. And tonight I went to check the lead screw and it wasnt as tight as I had left it. I pumped 1 time on the hydraulics and the whole table jumped enough to allow the hydraulic cylinder to drop from underneath the table. I was then able to use the lead screw to move the table farther down and just had to sit there and smile as I watched the gib slide with the table. I moved it about an inch or 2 and then used my brass flat bar to drift the small end of the gin and it shot free. I was then able to run the table until I ran out of lead screw and then slide it off onto my rolling work cart with a piece of plywood on it. Once I got it off I managed to get it on my work table and flip it surface side down and noticed that even if I had wanted to remove the lead screw before the table I wouldn't have been able to. There are 2 thrust bearings that will not clear the lead screw mount on the left end of the table and the screw won't free fit through the bearings so the would not allow that. I'll upload some pics in the daylight tomorrow to help clarify why I did the things i did. But for tonight I'm just gonna sit back and be thankful that all went well so far without breaking anyone or anything, man that table is heavy.....

https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/606/01/
 
Yeah, yeah I know... paragraphs.... what can I say, I was just excited about getting the table loose, but anywho thanks for all the comments and advice from everyone on here and I'm about to go prep a bunch of pictures of some things I mentioned in my previous post of some things I have seen that have me concerned about galling....
 
Congrats on getting it loose! My comment about riveting the gib permanently was due to your mention of a 20lb sledge hammer, the brass drift and the small end of the gib. I have seen that kind of abuse dealt out and was afraid that's what you had done. You approached this exactly right, and no harm at all in your side grinder approach to a mushroomed gib. It's about the only answer sometimes. Far better that than trying to drive that flared out gib back through the way.
 








 
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