Thread: Van Norman 1R

I was blessed today with a 1962 Van Norman mill. Got it for scrap value. It was used in a packaging plant for cutting small shaft keyways, that's all. Seems to be in good shape except for damages done by plant personnel during moving; two broken handles, and they picked it up with a forklift under the table, so who knows whether the table got sprung. Makes me cringe to think about it. It seems to be missing the X sensor too. Any comments on the machine or guidance for bringing it back to life would be appreciated.

In most parts of the world, fork lift operators are laborers with their brains missing.......

built down the street from me. Factory is now a Blue cross facility. Looks like 40 taper. Good machine and you even got the outboard support.

Is it possible for you to fax or scan/email a tracing of it to me? Missing one for my machine and really want to complete it.

Knee handle is a braze fix. No big deal. Might see if somebody can TIG weld the table handle back together for you. As for finding these handles as spare parts, forget it. They only made about 450 of these machines total and there are probably only a couple hundred left, if that many.

It's a pretty straight forward machine, but we can surely help if you have any questions. Make sure to check to see what voltage it is wired for. If it is running on 480 and you want to run a converter to supply 240 three phase, you'll need to order some new heaters or it'll kick them out in just a few seconds. They did make some of these single phase, so you may be off the hook on that problem (I had to change heaters on mine). Other than lack of an arbor support and discovering mine had metric leadscrews on it (DOH!!), that was the only real issue.

Thanks for the input, guys. Yes, MebFab, I can trace out the arbor support for you. Prolly easier for me to just drop it in an envelope and let the snail bring it to you as I think it may be slightly too big for a standard sheet of paper. It appears to be a fairly simple piece you could cut from a block. There is a window with a line that says 'oil fill' or something similar, which shows it has a reservoir for oiling the bearings.

I guess the 40 taper is a good thing. I understand the machines were produced with a variety of tapers - some which are difficult to find today. This machine came with no tooling other than the two arbors and the support.

My first thought on the table handle was JB Weld.

I'll be careful about the voltage. Thanks for the warning. There's a couple days gunk removal remaining before I can even open the electrics.

I've been one of those guys!

To his credit, the operator who loaded this machine (NOT the same guy who moved it and busted it up) was an artist. He used an overhead sling, which is the right way, and was so smooth. I would not have worried to let him move a nuclear warhead. He lifted and moved 3500 lbs without a quiver. Never seen it done better.

Mebfab: I made some good tracings. All all I need is your street address and I'll drop these in an envelope for you.

JB weld will fail in this application. It's OK for filling gaps in stuff, but no good for highly loaded parts like this. If you were closer, I'd be glad to do these repairs for you. Surely somebody on the forum here can point you to a good local welding shop.

Just whatever you do, DON'T let them nickel weld that cast iron knee handle. It'll never hold.

Thank you for the pics and tracing. Have been looking for a long time and not run across an outboard.

Ya know, if you can't find anybody to TIG the aluminum handle back up, you could use some thin flat bar on the spokes and repair with a few bolts. Would get you in business and it'd be a nice jig if you ever did get the handle welded up.

As for tooling on this machine, it's everywhere and cheap. Not as cheap as R-8, but it's far better tooling. You have the horizontal arbors, which is the expensive part.

Originally Posted by Mike C.

JB weld will fail in this application. It's OK for filling gaps in stuff, but no good for highly loaded parts like this. If you were closer, I'd be glad to do these repairs for you. Surely somebody on the forum here can point you to a good local welding shop.

Just whatever you do, DON'T let them nickel weld that cast iron knee handle. It'll never hold.

I'll see to it the knee handle gets brazed. Had a buddy years ago who Tigged very well. Will try to look him up. Thanks for the guidance.

Finished the heavy cleaning yesterday and moved machine to final location in the shop. I resisted the urge to put the pressure washer to it, instead using some diesel and a parts brush, top to bottom. I lubed all the ways and moved them through complete range of travel several times. Everything seemed to work well; no undue wear on any of the ways, which seems to agree with what the guys at the plant told me. Next challenge will be leveling the machine and rigging a power supply. The ID plate says 220/440 and I believe it was on three phase at the plant. Will have to build a converter of some kind . . . The adventure continues.

I don't have 3-phase power available. Please opine on whether a 3hp TECO MA7200-2003-N4 VFD [link: http://dealerselectric.com/item.asp?...D=165&PID=640] would be an appropriate match for this machine . . . Guess I need to pop the hood and check the hp rating on the spindle motor.

Also, since I don't have a 4' flat reference I'm going to attempt to assess the table with a precision level. The entire machine was lifted by the table (!) using a forklift. My idea is that any twist or bow will be seen in the level as I move it across the table. Bubble is sensitive to 0.001". Thoughts?

I ordered a TECO FM50. Was cheaper and seemed to have all necessary parameters. The spindle motor was 3hp, BTW.

Originally Posted by DieselBoot

I ordered a TECO FM50. Was cheaper and seemed to have all necessary parameters. The spindle motor was 3hp, BTW.

I believe the 1R has two motors. The 3HP drives the spindle and a fractional HP motor to drive the knee. If I'm wrong someone will come along a correct me.

Yup. Mike is indeed correct, you have no less than two and probably THREE motors on this machine. Spindle motor is a 3hp 3450rpm, knee is I think I 3/4hp and coolant pump is a 1/4hp. Cancel the VFD order and build yourself a 5hp rotary converter so you can run everything or whatever motors you need for a particular job. With the geared spindle and table feed, a VFD is a waste, anyway. VFDs are for those glorified drill presses called Bridgeports. Van Normans are real mills.

Originally Posted by Mike C.

Yup. Mike is indeed correct, you have no less than two and probably THREE motors on this machine. Spindle motor is a 3hp 3450rpm, knee is I think I 3/4hp and coolant pump is a 1/4hp. Cancel the VFD order and build yourself a 5hp rotary converter so you can run everything or whatever motors you need for a particular job. With the geared spindle and table feed, a VFD is a waste, anyway. VFDs are for those glorified drill presses called Bridgeports. Van Normans are real mills.

I checked. The mill has only two motors; a three hp for the spindle and a 1/3 hp for the table. A third motor for the knee was optional but this mill doesn't have it. So total maximum load is 3 1/3 hp.

The VFD will handle 3 hp, 10+ amps and will be completely quiet, and simpler than an RPC (no moving parts). Total cost is just over 2 bills and I should be up and running this week as opposed to another 'project'. I hope my desire for a quick solution doesn't bite me later

Originally Posted by DieselBoot

The VFD will handle 3 hp, 10+ amps and will be completely quiet, and simpler than an RPC (no moving parts).

What you are overlooking is that a VFD cannot be used to drive two dissimilar motors (or two similar motors with dissimilar loads) at the same time. It doesn't matter whether you are using the "variable" part of VFD or not; VFD's actively sense what the motor is doing and having two motors on the VFD output will confuse it thoroughly.

Worse, you are not supposed to switch the output of a VFD. It should be directly connected to the motor, and any control wiring should be "upstream" of the VFD. When you try to use a VFD as a substitute for a phase convertor, all the motor controls are "downstream" of the VFD. Turning the motor on or off through a conventional control switch is capable of frying the output stage of your shiny new VFD.

If you want to use VFDs, buy two: one for the spindle and one for the table feed. Connect them directly to the respective motors, and connect the existing motor power leads to the inputs of the VFDs. Configure the VFDs to start and stop appropriately on simple power on/off.

Or, buy or make yourself a proper phase convertor.

Originally Posted by sfriedberg

What you are overlooking is that a VFD cannot be used to drive two dissimilar motors (or two similar motors with dissimilar loads) at the same time. It doesn't matter whether you are using the "variable" part of VFD or not; VFD's actively sense what the motor is doing and having two motors on the VFD output will confuse it thoroughly.

Worse, you are not supposed to switch the output of a VFD. It should be directly connected to the motor, and any control wiring should be "upstream" of the VFD. When you try to use a VFD as a substitute for a phase convertor, all the motor controls are "downstream" of the VFD. Turning the motor on or off through a conventional control switch is capable of frying the output stage of your shiny new VFD.

If you want to use VFDs, buy two: one for the spindle and one for the table feed. Connect them directly to the respective motors, and connect the existing motor power leads to the inputs of the VFDs. Configure the VFDs to start and stop appropriately on simple power on/off.

Or, buy or make yourself a proper phase convertor.

Thanks very much, Mr. Friedberg, for that bit of wisdom. I had not realized the VFD could not handle switched loads downstream, which is exactly what I had planned.

I immediately contacted Renee at FactoryMation and they were able to pull my order off the conveyor before it shipped. Very glad for that. It's time for me to develop a more comprehensive plan for fully powering this machine. I have a 3 phase Lincoln welder that needs a power supply too. Perhaps an RPC would make a better overall plan for powering the mill and welder, plus any future 3 phase loads.