Van Norman #22L with a Brown & Sharpe #13 Taper ...now what???

Pjd900 · Nov 8, 2017

Found a (seemingly) great deal on an old Van Norman 22L ...was told it had a 50 taper spindle...came to find out that it actually has, what appears to be, a B&S No. 13.
After a week of searching the known universe for B & S # 13 tooling and/or arbors, I can barely find any mention of this mythical taper, much less anything that is for sale nor anything that has been for sale, since the internet was created.
Is there anyone out there with one of these cursed machines???... and if so, how many of your children had to be sacrificed in order for it to cut a chip???

Cal Haines · Nov 10, 2017

There's a guy over on hobby-machinist that has one. He's been able to find tooling for his. I think there are several others around as well.

Where did you get it? Surely the shop that used it last had tooling for it?

A lot of eBay sellers have no clue what they are listing when it comes to odd tapers. There have probably been quite a few pieces of B&S #13 tooling sold there that weren't listed as such. Just keep a careful eye on the listings and ask for dimensions when you see something that looks like might be B&S #13. The drive tabs should help you spot them. Also, you're in an area with a lot of machinery dealers. Take a day off an hit some of the larger/older dealers. You might be surprised what they have in the back room. Finally, the dimensions of a B&S 13 taper are easy to find, you can always make adapters to fit. I would start by making an adapter to hold a straight-shank ER-series collet chuck. I've gotten some very nice ER collet chucks and collets from this outfit: CTC Tools. (They are in Hong Kong, so it takes a month or more for things to show up, but it's worth the wait.)

Cal

Pjd900 · Nov 10, 2017

Thanks so much for your reply, Cal. Yes, I will keep my eye out, but i haven’t even been able to find a verified image of a B&S 13 on the web, much less a dimensional drawing. I bought it from a guy on Craigslist who said that a vocational high school had auctioned it off. It had sat unused for years and no tooling had been included.
I’ll have plenty of time to continue to investigate the taper while I disassemble, clean, and repaint this beast.
Thanks again!
Paul

johnoder · Nov 10, 2017

much less a dimensional drawing.

Its 2.073" dia. at gage line big end and 1.750" dia. at small end, exactly .500" taper per foot on diameter and the distance between those large and small diameters is 7.750"

Per Scully-Jones Catalog 500 from 1942 - with the notation that their stuff was built to these dimensions

Fair chance VN used shorter version, same taper

VM has both full line catalog and manual related to 22 for free download

Ohio Mike · Nov 11, 2017

Somewhere (probably the Van Norman group) there is a CAD for a B&S13 to NMTB30 adapter.

Pjd900 · Nov 11, 2017

Ohio Mike said:
Somewhere (probably the Van Norman group) there is a CAD for a B&S13 to NMTB30 adapter.

Sorry, I’m new here, I thought this was the Van Norman forum?

Mike C. · Nov 11, 2017

Search Van Norman in Yahoo groups. Like Cal says, make an adapter or two and you are set. VN made a B&S 13 to VN2 sleeve adapter for these machines. The B&S 13 to NMTB 30 sounds like the best bet. Lots of tooling options in NMTB 30.

Pjd900 · Nov 11, 2017

Mike C. said:
Search Van Norman in Yahoo groups. Like Cal says, make an adapter or two and you are set. VN made a B&S 13 to VN2 sleeve adapter for these machines. The B&S 13 to NMTB 30 sounds like the best bet. Lots of tooling options in NMTB 30.

Okay, thank you Mike C. I’m also trying to determine the production year of this 22L. When searching for Van Norman serial number index, I see many references to http://jmkasunich.com/vannorman/VN_Serial.htm but this site seems defunct. Anyone know where I can find the info that was stored on that page?

Pjd900 · Nov 11, 2017

Mike C. said:
Search Van Norman in Yahoo groups. Like Cal says, make an adapter or two and you are set. VN made a B&S 13 to VN2 sleeve adapter for these machines. The B&S 13 to NMTB 30 sounds like the best bet. Lots of tooling options in NMTB 30.

Thank you, Mike C. I thought I replied to your message several hours ago, but maybe I don’t understand how the posts are uploaded (apologies if this is a double post).
Anyhow, I’m also trying to determine the age of this Van Norman #22L. When searching for a serial number registry, I’m continually directed to a defunct website called jmkusinich.com. Does anyone have the info that was archived on this site, or know how I can determine the vintage of this mill: 22L-5859. Thank you.
Paul

johnoder · Nov 11, 2017

or know how I can determine the vintage of this mill: 22L-5859

Taken over by Bryant Grinders

In the serial book Serial Number Reference Book for Metalworking Machinery

In the 22L / 22M column we have 5558 for 1941 and 6035 for 1942

(you have to look carefully since there is no clue whether you are looking at Bryant or VN products)

Mike C. · Nov 12, 2017

What John O said. I was going to just rough estimate WWII. They made a BUNCH of 22s and 12s during the war. Most fall into that age. After the war, they made a few before changing to the newer designs (1-R, 2-R, 3-R, etc...) 10 years or so later, which were made in very small numbers. By the late 60s, they were pretty much hand making them to order.

thebencarter · Nov 13, 2017

Pjd900 said:
When searching for a serial number registry, I’m continually directed to a defunct website called jmkusinich.com. Does anyone have the info that was archived on this site, or know how I can determine the vintage of this mill: 22L-5859. Thank you.
Paul

The Wayback Machine has a copy of his entire website, including the serial number page: Van Norman Milling Machine Serial Numbers and Dates

It's the same info John provided, so it's probably from the same source. I thought I'd post the link in case other folks don't know about the Wayback Machine and other web archives.

sfriedberg · Nov 13, 2017

I've given some thought to rehosting John's info on my own website, and augmenting it with some additional data, but haven't gotten around to contacting him for permission yet. Harangue me and it may happen.

Cal Haines · Nov 13, 2017

Machinery's Handbook is another source for the dimension for various tapers, including Brown & Sharpe, Morse, NMTB, etc.

Cal

Jaxian · Nov 15, 2017

Old but good reference to taper dimensions.

http://www.tools-n-gizmos.com/specs/Tapers.html#B&S

cookster88 · Nov 16, 2017

pjd900, check your PM.

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