Van Norman Questions

Hey there folks!

So I've decided to take up collecting some heavy iron to hold down the concrete in my garage properly.

After perusing the EBay, auctions sites and doing some research I've decided I really like the look of Van Norman machines, the swiveling head and the versatility that brings really draws me.

Problem is outside of seeing them and kicking the tires, I've got no hands on experience with Van Normans.

I've heard/read some things and now I've got some questions and this looks like the most productive spot to spout an off.

1) I heard finding parts can be a bastard, any problem areas to look for on inspecting outside of the standard fare?

2) the ones with quills seem rare, are the quills any good at all/worth holding out for? Any models tNorman.

3) How common are the ones with 3 axis power feed, Is that mainly a feature on later models?

4) Are they as beefy/rigid as they look?

5) if I get the 5V or 2N spindle how does one mount larger cutters than 3/4 shank? Is there a spindle face hole pattern for mounting fave mills and the like?

Thanks guys

Oh my, so many topics to cover.. I love all my VN machines they are ridged as hell and with tooling will remove metal and love every second of it. The 22 series and up are common three axis power , knee and x, y . If you find one with a quill... Buy it, they are rare, look for a universal so you can pivot the table, adds a lot of versatility to the machine...spindle tapers is where you have to pay attention, if you want 3 axis power you are in a larger machine and 5V isn't were you are , some others can vouch for the options there , my 16 has 5V , although I have collets, I took R8's Weldon and turned them to 5v, also more rugged and surpassing the 5/8 limit on the stock collet, this is my 2c and you can't go wrong with a VN in my opinion..


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Started out with a VN12 just to do occasional horizontal milling. Have a complete right angle set up for the Bridgeport but it is a pain to set up for just one or two pieces. And not for heavy cuts. Liked the little VN12 so much, I sold it and upgraded to a VN 24. As already said, look for a 22 or later with a common spindle size, power feeds all three axis, etc. Mine is a NMTB 50. So very reasonable tooling prices and easy to find.
My VN 12 had the proprietary Van Norman spindle size. Only bought it because it was at scrap price, in good running condition, and came loaded with all the needed tooling in that size.

Myrmidon said:

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5) if I get the 5V or 2N spindle how does one mount larger cutters than 3/4 shank? Is there a spindle face hole pattern for mounting fave mills and the like?

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The Van Norman "C" spindle (which Hardinge calls 5V, since there are other "C" tapers out there), has the advantage of drive lugs for arbors and endmill holders. Whereas a Bridgeport R8 spindle relies on a small drive pin and friction to keep the collet or arbor from rotating, the drive lugs (which are similar to what you find on 50 taper spindles) are much more robust. If you get a Weldon-shank endmill holder, which secures the endmill in the holder via setscrews, your ability to turn large tools will be limited only by the HP of the machine. Tools4Cheap.com (now out of business) used to sell a set of Weldon-shank endmill holders with drive lugs that went up to 1-1/4" in capacity. I have set that I'm selling with the Van Norman No. 12 that I have listed here.

Cal

I practically started on a Van Norman, as it was the first real mill I ever got my hands on. I had run a three in one and built a functional, but pretty lousy mill out of a benchtop drill press when I was in my 20s. I learned the Van Norman and it is still my favorite in terms of versatility and rigidity, given its size.

Keep your eyes open and try to find one of the second generation VN machines, the 1R, 2R, 3R series. They do not have the proprietary spindle tapers (NMTB 30, 40 OR 50, instead), and they have a MUCH bigger work envelope between the table and spindle. You can also get them in the quill version with powerfeed on the head, but they are rare and hard to find. The 1R-3-22 is pretty much the updated VN 12. It has powerfeed on the table with stops, but it has three times the power (3hp motor), weighs twice as much, and has a huge work envelope, by comparison. 2 and 3R have three axis powerfeeds with rapids on all.

I run a wide variety of machines at work and at home. The VN is not the absolute best at any one thing (unfair to compare it to a 25hp, 12,000lb #3 Cincinnati vertical), but it has the huge benefit of doing a lot of things VERY well in one small compact package that takes very little floor space.

In response to the original poster:

I have a Cincinatti Toolmaster 1B which is like a far sturdier version of a Bridgeport-type turret mill, and last September I picked up a nice condition Van Norman 1R3 (standard type, no quill). Were I forced to keep only one, it's no contest in my mind, I would keep the Van Norman.

The ones with quills are as far as I know far, far less common than the ones without quills, and they're especially highly desirable to those who appreciate Van Normans, so they may be few and far between. One option you may have is to get a quill-less model and then get what is called a VN "Universal High Speed Head" which adds an extra axis (actually several axes) of rotation, and adds a quill, although it is a vernier crank rather than a side handle, so still not as fast if you are trying to drill rapidly or in quantity. The Universal HS heads are themselves not common, but in my guess from looking around for both, the head may be more common than the machines with the 'native' quill. But there are different mount and drive arrangements for different variations of the Universal HS head and they may be especially rare for the later 1R, 2R etch machines, though you may be able to adapt one (I am aiming to do that with one for my 1R3). If you google Van Norman 1RQ one of the results that should be early on the results list is a machine sales company selling a 1RQ; the ad has been around a while which makes me think it is probably not cheap or else maybe it sold but the website may have been updated. There is also what looks like a 2RQ that has been on ebay for a long time (to help you spot which one, the headline includes "slightly used condition") with a high price, although it does seem to include some usually scarce VN accessories like rotary table and dividing head. But someone has hacked it by installing a 1 phase motor topside and it looks like their improvised drive system involved removing the original motor's rotor (which in the 'R' variants was actually housed within the back of the ram)- probably functions OK but it is a shame that someone butchered the elegant original internal motor assembly; if you look at it definitely check in case the original motor rotor is floating around somewhere in the machine's vicinity.

Anyways, that may be info overload, but good luck and enjoy your search, and your acquisition(s)

If they swapped the spindle motor to single phase, the knee feed motor may be inoperative. Can't see how they'd shortcut that to single phase.