Van Norman Spindle Conversion

rhoward · Jul 30, 2016

Big question and undoubtedly with lots of opinions and answers. Can a Van Norman 22L universal mill be adapted to use R-8 tooling or is that a big project? Or maybe better to not alter the spindle at all and just make R-8 tools that fit the present configuration?

r.vial@yahoo.com · Jul 30, 2016

rhoward said:
Big question and undoubtedly with lots of opinions and answers. Can a Van Norman 22L universal mill be adapted to use R-8 tooling or is that a big project? Or maybe better to not alter the spindle at all and just make R-8 tools that fit the present configuration?

Yes I have one that have been converted to r8 I have an adapter that was made to accept the draw tube from the mill to hold the draw tube of the r8 then u just need to get threaded rod that will draw the collet in I have a van Norman 22lu

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rhoward · Jul 30, 2016

Do you possibly have drawings of that conversion? Did you need to alter the VN spindle to accept the R-8 tooling or did you machine something that just plugged in?

rhoward · Jul 30, 2016

Also, since the VN has a robust spindle design it would be my preference that I maintain that by not altering the spindle except as possibly needed. My thought would be to machine R-8 compatible tooling for light milling and drilling while still preserving the strength and rigidity of the original design. Probably should have said that up front.

Paolo_MD · Jul 31, 2016

As far as I know, the 22L mill came with a choice of VN #2 (Hardinge 50V), B&S #13 and NMTB-50 spindles. Which one yours has? Personally, unless you manage to build an adapter (which, although tricky, it should be possible even with the VN #2), I'd suggest you to modify it to take CAT/NMTB-30 or 40.

Paolo

Mike C. · Jul 31, 2016

Talk to [email protected], that's how to do it. I did a similar conversion over ten years ago, but left that job and cannot provide specifics, except what is hazily floating around in my feeble dyslexic memory. As Paolo says, need to see exactly which spindle you really have. If NMTB50, there is a wild range of options, but do NOT use the crappy NMTB to R-8 adapters. They try to use a setscrew to bind the R-8 in place instead of a proper drawbar. Disaster waiting to happen on anything with near the power and rigidity of a 22L.

rhoward · Aug 1, 2016

Hate to show my ignorance but what are "CAT/NMTB-30 or 40" Are these variations of a CAT standard? Looks like maybe the VN taper might be a VN #2 which apparently is the same as a Hardinge 50V. I have no clue what a NMTB-50 is. Very confusing! I am basically a manual lathe guy and my experience with lathe tapers is limited to R-8 or 5c or Jacobs or Morse.

Paolo_MD · Aug 1, 2016

Here you can see a few more common tapers. (One of the first results by searching with Google).

Paolo

rhoward · Aug 1, 2016

Hey that is a great resource Paolo. Thanks for sharing!

If you were to choose one that is the best regarding cost for tooling vs rigidity which would you choose?

Randy

Mike C. · Aug 1, 2016

Best bet in your case is indeed VN#2 to R-8. Meanwhile, grab all the VN2 stuff you can find. It's a million percent better quality than cheap R-8.

Paolo_MD · Aug 2, 2016

Randy,
Apologies for the delay. Anyhow, Mike nailed it: using 50-V (VN #2) is the best non-destructive choice. As mentioned earlier, I do have two VN 22L. The one I'm using right now has a NMTB-50 spindle. I enjoy the rigidity of that beast and I also enjoy using end-mills and other tooling with 1.5" shank. However, I think that it's overkill for the machine. the end-mill holders are big and heavy and take a lot of space both in storage and in operation (these VN don't excel in max distance between spindle and table in vertical position to start with).
If I were to mess around with one (maybe playing with a spare spindle), I'd consider a 40-taper, since it would still allow me to use tooling with shanks larger than 1". In the shop of the Machine Shop Museum at Tuckahoe we have an Abene more or less the size of the 22L and it's equipped with MNTB-40 spindle: it looks plenty enough and anything smaller would look inadequate to my eyes.

Paolo

Monarchist · Aug 2, 2016

Paolo_MD said:
....consider a 40-taper, since it would still allow me to use tooling with shanks larger than 1". In the shop of the Machine Shop Museum at Tuckahoe we have an Abene more or less the size of the 22L and it's equipped with MNTB-40 spindle: it looks plenty enough and anything smaller would look inadequate to my eyes.

Paolo

HP is not torque. Ratio multiplications exist and are varied, face, shell, slab mill cutters can present higher loads than endmills.....but... "in general", 40-taper (NMTB/CAT/BT, et al ) is fine for 5 HP.. Perhaps 7.5 HP if limited to end-mills.

And yes, common, cheap, cheerful, 40-taper is. Should remain so for longer than most 'ere will care, too.

Bill

Cal Haines · Aug 2, 2016

I think it's a huge mistake to convert to R8, particularly for a No. 22. For one thing, you are all but giving up the ability to use the machine in horizontal mode, which is where it really shines. IMHO, 40 taper would make a lot more sense.

Cal

Paolo_MD · Aug 2, 2016

Cal Haines said:
I think it's a huge mistake to convert to R8, particularly for a No. 22. For one thing, you are all but giving up the ability to use the machine in horizontal mode, which is where it really shines. IMHO, 40 taper would make a lot more sense.

Cal

Cal,
As far as I know, "converting it to R8", as it was mentioned in a couple of earlier posts, means making a removable adapter that, on the outside has the dimensions of VN #2 (Hardinge 50-V) and, inside the dimensions to accept R8 collets, since those collets are smaller than VN #2 in practically all dimensions.
Any other conversion would indeed require to butcher the spindle.

Paolo

r.vial@yahoo.com · Aug 3, 2016

I don't have a drawing of it I got the machine that way I'll try to get a pic up soon

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Doozer · Sep 8, 2016

You can buy an adapter to convert
NMTB50 to ER40 collets on my VN22LU.
ER40 will hold a 1" shank.
That is what I did.
By the way, I also bought an adapter
that converts NMTB50 to TG200,
which will take up to 2" shank.
I think I have my tooling options covered.
I also made an adapter for my G&L 25T boring
mill to use TG200 collets. I can mount lathe
chucks with the 2" shank. Works for me.

-D

r.vial@yahoo.com · Nov 5, 2016

Aa it ahs been said befor here if u have a 50 tapper its not hard to make the addapter to use r8 tooling i can help with that i can pull out my adpter and send pics to show u but it would have to be a 50 tapper machine

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Dan from Oakland · Nov 6, 2016

If you have a 50 taper machine, why would you want to mess with an r-8 adapter? Get a 50 taper collet adapter that uses TG100 or ER40 collets or similar- R-8s need to be tightened with a drawbar while a regular collet adapter can be tightened from the front, which is much easier for most work. What am I missing here?

r.vial@yahoo.com · Nov 6, 2016

R8 is cheap and u can find it all over i do have a 50 tapper machine and i have a addapter that is custom made to go from 50 to r8 and think about this it you have some thing that tightens from the side and u dont get it sug it can come out and ur seting on the side it can hit u now with r8 they draw from the top as do 50 tapper ur not goi g to be standing on the top

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Mike C. · Nov 6, 2016

Those NMBT 50 to R8 adapters that use a setscrew to hold the R8 in place are useless. Not only do they push the R8 tooling off center, they also don't draw the R8 tooling into the taper, so a collet will not pull up and hold.

If the machine is NMTB 50, then get a TG-100 or ER collet chuck. Huge advantage there is that you can swap collets without having to drop the drawbar. You just loosen the nut on the chuck and swap out collets. Much faster and the adapter doesn't come out when you change.

If you have the VN2 (Hardinge calls it 50V), then you make a VN2-R8 adapter and use that, or you round up some real VN2 collets and other holders.

Van Norman Spindle Conversion

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