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Van Norman Z/Y Feed Install?

michael.kitko

Cast Iron
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Location
Pontefract, UK
Quick question, has anyone ever seen or heard of anyone installing a feed motor on the Z or Y Feed handles on a Van Norman? I've been contemplating it, but would like to hear from anyone if it is worth it.

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I'm guessing this is one of the #12 or #16 models, as most/all of the #2x/3x models had power feeds on all three axes. My #28A has power feeds, and rapids, on all three.

So, what are you thinking about adapting? #12, #16, or maybe something much older like a #2 or a #1-1/2?
 
Honestly, I am thinking of doing a "Bridgeport" style feed on either a 12 or 16. I am not having any luck with obtaining a larger size like a 22 or up, so I thought, why not see if anyone has done this sort of mod and go from there. Right now I have a 12, but with that crank in the back side for the ram, I am thinking of changing over to a 16, which one happens to be for sale around my area.

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Honestly, I am thinking of doing a "Bridgeport" style feed on either a 12 or 16. I am not having any luck with obtaining a larger size like a 22 or up, so I thought, why not see if anyone has done this sort of mod and go from there. Right now I have a 12, but with that crank in the back side for the ram, I am thinking of changing over to a 16, which one happens to be for sale around my area.
...
You can easily live without power feed on Y. Power feed on Z would be nice.

You said:
Right now I have a 12, but with that crank in the back side for the ram, ...

I don't understand what you mean. I've never seen one that didn't have the elevation crank the front of the front of the knee.

What model No. 16 are you looking at? All models of the No. 16 only have power feed on X.

Cal
 
Cal, I wasn't clear, was I? I meant for the ram. My understanding is the 16 has the ram crank on the side and has the feed all contained in the knee, where with the 12, I have to reach around the back to use the feed box and the ram crank.

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You can easily live without power feed on Y. Power feed on Z would be nice.

You said:


I don't understand what you mean. I've never seen one that didn't have the elevation crank the front of the front of the knee.
...

Cal

Cal,
I guess that Michael is referring to the crank to position the ram. The VN 16 has a rack and pinion controlled from the side, like the larger models.
I could understand how controlling the position of the ram from the back could be painful when the mill is rather close to a wall.

Paolo
 
Cal, I wasn't clear, was I? I meant for the ram. My understanding is the 16 has the ram crank on the side and has the feed all contained in the knee, where with the 12, I have to reach around the back to use the feed box and the ram crank.
...
That's correct. The crank for moving the ram in and out is on the left side of the column. If your arms are long enough, you could reach across the table to adjust it. There are two locks, one on either side of the crank; I don't think you can reach the one in back very easily from in front of the table.

The X-axis feed motor is located in the knee and the feed controls are on the front of the knee. The No. 16 also has one-shot lubrication and the option for a universal table.

Cal
 
Cal, if I may ask, how familiar are you with the 16's? I finally got my new-to-me 16 up and running, minus the feed motor and coolant pump, which I have to fix one switch (feed motor stop) and clean the sump out. So looking at it, I have started to think, it really wouldn't be that hard and expensive to make a gear box and drive to give the 16 a power Y. All I would have to do is extend (make a new one or add to) the spline drive shaft on the right side facing that table. Then use that extended shaft to drive a gear box attached to the Y operation handle. The gear box could be attached where the reference line for the Y dial is located. I still have not figured out the clutch/feed lever idea yet. Anyways, judging by your experience, do you see this as a possibility and what are you thoughts? I think I do, and I wouldn't be too surprised if it was a thing already when they were custom ordered.
 
I have a No. 16 (not to be confused with the 16L/16M/16S) with a universal table. It's sitting in my shop with the ram gearbox and cutter-head torn apart, waiting for me to get around to installing new bearings.

I guess you could modify the X-feed to drive Y, but I don't think it would be worth the effort. For a home shop machine, you really don't need Y-axis feed. You could use a dog-clutch, like the one for the X-feed and use limit switches to keep it from driving into the ends of the axis.

You could add a Bridgeport-style power feed to Y or Z. They consist of a variable-speed gear-motor that mounts around the hand-wheel shaft. eBay (link), Shars (link), and others carry them. I've only used them on the X-feed on Bridgeports. They all seem to be rated for around 150 in*pounds (12.5 ft*pounds), which isn't a lot of torque; I'm not sure if that's enough for a No. 16's knee. It would probably fine for Y, but I suspect that it would just be in the way. Knee elevation feed would be very nice, however. The feed units come with limit switches that you mount to keep the drive from crashing into the end of travel.

I think that anyone who needed power feed on Y and Z would have just moved up to the No. 22, which has feed on all three axes.

Cal
 
I have a No. 16 (not to be confused with the 16L/16M/16S) with a universal table. It's sitting in my shop with the ram gearbox and cutter-head torn apart, waiting for me to get around to installing new bearings.
Cal

Cal, if you don't mind, may I ask a question? First off, I just bought a gear style Bridgeport feed assembly that I am planning to put on the Z axis handle. Second, I've looked and thought long and hard about this, I am planning on going the modify route on the power Y. Mainly, the thoughts have come while I've bored too many holes to like doing it without power.

My question, when you pull the Y axis handle off, there is dial. That slides off and you see three cap screws and two open pin spanner holes. Does that cap thread in and out or does it come out another way?

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Cal, if you don't mind, may I ask a question? First off, I just bought a gear style Bridgeport feed assembly that I am planning to put on the Z axis handle. Second, I've looked and thought long and hard about this, I am planning on going the modify route on the power Y. Mainly, the thoughts have come while I've bored too many holes to like doing it without power.

My question, when you pull the Y axis handle off, there is dial. That slides off and you see three cap screws and two open pin spanner holes. Does that cap thread in and out or does it come out another way?

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I'm not sure. I haven't dug into that part of my machine. I've got the cutter-head and ram gearbox apart, but nothing below that.

The manual seems to indicate that the piece with the "spanner holes" (part 16-1124) isn't threaded and the three cap screws make it unlikely that it's threaded into the knee. The holes may not be spanner holes at all: the manual shows matching holes in the knee casting and appears to call out dowel pins (part 9983). Maybe the last guy didn't put the dowel pins back?

I'm not sure what's the best way to get it free. Maybe use lever or jack between the column and the back of the table to push the table forward, using the end of the Y screw to push it out of the knee?

Cal
 
I recently replaced seal in my 16 and had lead screw for elevating table out for the process. After reading your post, I'm wondering if it would be simpler to add a gear and chain drive to leadscrew itself (part 16-1126)?. A gear or even belt pulley mounted directly to elevation screw near floor would allow for some torque amplification and the motor could be controlled with a simple bidirectional foot switch. If belt driven, it could be readily be disengaged and ball crank used. The ballcranks on the VN16 plain are 5/8 shaft diameter just like bridgeport and for 25 bucks or so (ebay), you can get a disengaging model that will safely spin freely while using power feed. I just put one on the right side of my table (same VN part #) and only issue was keyway was a bit small requiring some modification of woodruff key.
 
Cal, if you don't mind, may I ask a question? First off, I just bought a gear style Bridgeport feed assembly that I am planning to put on the Z axis handle. Second, I've looked and thought long and hard about this, I am planning on going the modify route on the power Y. Mainly, the thoughts have come while I've bored too many holes to like doing it without power.

My question, when you pull the Y axis handle off, there is dial. That slides off and you see three cap screws and two open pin spanner holes. Does that cap thread in and out or does it come out another way?

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I'm not sure. I haven't dug into that part of my machine. I've got the cutter-head and ram gearbox apart, but nothing below that.

The manual seems to indicate that the piece with the "spanner holes" (part 16-1124) isn't threaded and the three cap screws make it unlikely that it's threaded into the knee. The holes may not be spanner holes at all: the manual shows matching holes in the knee casting and appears to call out dowel pins (part 9983). Maybe the last guy didn't put the dowel pins back?

I'm not sure what's the best way to get it free. Maybe use lever or jack between the column and the back of the table to push the table forward, using the end of the Y screw to push it out of the knee?

Cal
Oops! You asked about the elevating mechanism, but for some reason I was looking at the cross-feed mechanism.

It looks like the flange with the three holes is on the end of 16-1116, which is a long tube with the handle on one end and the bevel gear on the other. The parts diagram doesn't show any dowel pins, so maybe the holes are for a spanner? If the "spanner" holes are deeper than the thickness of the flange, they're probably empty dowel pin holes. But it still doesn't look like 16-1116 is threaded. Once the three bolts are removed, it should be possible to put the 16-1286 back on and use it, with a puller, to withdraw 16-1116 and all the associate parts.

Sorry for not reading your post properly.

Cal
 
I recently replaced seal in my 16 and had lead screw for elevating table out for the process. After reading your post, I'm wondering if it would be simpler to add a gear and chain drive to leadscrew itself (part 16-1126)?. A gear or even belt pulley mounted directly to elevation screw near floor would allow for some torque amplification and the motor could be controlled with a simple bidirectional foot switch. ...
An interesting idea. Are you suggesting rotating the elevating screw (16-1126) itself, or rotating the nut (12-624)? Unless I'm missing something, to rotate the screw, the mechanism would have to hang from the bottom of the knee. A mechanism to rotate the nut could be mounted on the base, perhaps replacing the tower-like casting (16-1002) that supports the nut. Plus, if you rotate the nut, the manual elevation feed still works and there's no need to disconnect it when the power feed is running.

Cal
 
I recently replaced seal in my 16 and had lead screw for elevating table out for the process. After reading your post, I'm wondering if it would be simpler to add a gear and chain drive to leadscrew itself (part 16-1126)?. A gear or even belt pulley mounted directly to elevation screw near floor would allow for some torque amplification and the motor could be controlled with a simple bidirectional foot switch. If belt driven, it could be readily be disengaged and ball crank used. The ballcranks on the VN16 plain are 5/8 shaft diameter just like bridgeport and for 25 bucks or so (ebay), you can get a disengaging model that will safely spin freely while using power feed. I just put one on the right side of my table (same VN part #) and only issue was keyway was a bit small requiring some modification of woodruff key.
Do you have a picture?

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Oops! You asked about the elevating mechanism, but for some reason I was looking at the cross-feed mechanism.

It looks like the flange with the three holes is on the end of 16-1116, which is a long tube with the handle on one end and the bevel gear on the other. The parts diagram doesn't show any dowel pins, so maybe the holes are for a spanner? If the "spanner" holes are deeper than the thickness of the flange, they're probably empty dowel pin holes. But it still doesn't look like 16-1116 is threaded. Once the three bolts are removed, it should be possible to put the 16-1286 back on and use it, with a puller, to withdraw 16-1116 and all the associate parts.

Sorry for not reading your post properly.

Cal

Cal, I was talking about the Y axis, not the Z. I think the Z might be the same, but I haven't gotten a chance to look. The part I was referring to was 16-1124 like you originally thought. The piece I will be driving mine off of will be 16-814, because my unit doesn't have the cover like 16-819. I am planning on extending the 16-815 to allow a gear box and shifter to slip in at the 16-1124 piece. Either before or after, I haven't decided.

For the Z axis feed, I am going to try to extend that shaft in that tube and drive it with the Bridgeport gear box feed. From initial holding it up near the handle, it looks like everything will clear if it is held out 2". The only thing that would have an issue is the shifter for feeds on the main feed motor.

Fortunately the gear box showed up. Unfortunately, it won't move, the shifter won't shift, and it's missing a corner. Still need a second one to do the ram mod, but I definitely haven't got that one figured out yet.

c8ca5e57a35f7da9cc464be2320e1521.jpg


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An interesting idea. Are you suggesting rotating the elevating screw (16-1126) itself, or rotating the nut (12-624)? Unless I'm missing something, to rotate the screw, the mechanism would have to hang from the bottom of the knee. A mechanism to rotate the nut could be mounted on the base, perhaps replacing the tower-like casting (16-1002) that supports the nut. Plus, if you rotate the nut, the manual elevation feed still works and there's no need to disconnect it when the power feed is running.

Cal

I was thinking of just the leadscrew not nut but I forgot nut was at bottom. Would require a keyway the whole length of leadscrew like a southbend lathe... But maybe on top and hung from bottom of knee but that's a tight space as you know. When I looked at my 16 today, it seemed like a less reasonable idea.

The ball crank i was referring to can be found on ebay by searching terms "safety ball crank bridgeport". I can send pix of my install on left side of table, but I cheaped and just bought the standard type without disengagement mechanism for left side of my table since I rarely stand there. Saved a whole 10 bucks....
 
without disengagement mechanism

And there's the challenge. More to engage/dis-engage than there is to sourcing "basic" rotational power.
Lots of folk have an option that wasn't on the menu even five or ten years ago.

Seriously competent "cordless" hand power tools with an appropriate coupling, and cheap enough to dedicate one to a given machine-tool.

Not as elegant as a built-in, but then again, how many hours of one's life does "the need" even impact at all?
 
Well, I took some time today to see why it was locked up while in gear. Long story short if you rotate A, with D and E in neutral, then C rotates. I am guessing something is frozen together on that shaft with the gear stack. I haven't taken one of these apart, but I am guessing it is like lathe change gears, where the spool right to the right of B. D shifter does move fine and so does E shifter moves. It looks like there is no wear inside at all.

I have not looked into if the motor works or not yet.
4bdff424763cd93831b6af0f0cbeae0b.jpg


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Well, I freed it up finally and found out some cool things. First, the fibrous washer down inside was not in the right place. Second, the bottom thrust bearing was in the wrong order. Third, the nut on the bottom was too tight. All of these issues are fixed now and the gear box is back together.

I also took the feed handle off of Z and now I have a basic idea of how to put the feed box on there. I am going to build an aluminum bracket to mount the feed box to the knee. I was thinking of either extending the current handwheel shaft to accommodate or building a whole new one. Obviously, I am leaning toward just adding onto the one in the machine already. As far as how to get power from the feed to the knee, I have an idea about using a shear pin through the shaft or, although longer, building a tapping head slip clutch thing to transmit power. Any suggestions are obviously welcome.

Tomorrow, I am gonna take a quick peak in the motor and see what has happened and if the motor is good.

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