2005 Haas VF-6/50 w/ 210TR and approximately 1500 hrs for titanium & copper?

Greetings, future friends! I seek advice regarding whether I am getting a decent deal for a good machine - or about to make a huge mistake!

I am ready to step up from a Tormach PCNC1100, which has been terrific for learning and proving my ideas, to a 5-axis machine with vastly improved rigidity and throughput. My primary product lines are titanium firearms, specialty scientific incubators and phase-change heat pumps, robotics, and upmarket furniture and fixtures. I use Siemens NX for all CAD/CAM. Most of my mill work is on titanium 6al-4v and copper, but approximately 20% is other random stuff, such as mild steel, aluminum, stainless, etc. Business is good, and it's time to get serious.

I located a 2005 Haas VF-6/50 for sale with 4th and 5th axis support enabled and a TR210 table. The TR210 table was used only once, and the VF-6 has approximately 1500 hours on it. The seller is looking for somewhere between $90k and $120k for everything.

My research indicates that this is a decent deal, but I am putting a lot on the line. Although my energy, ambition, and determination are second to none, I am new to this field, and I lack experience. Any comments, questions, or opinions would be welcome. Thanks!

I'm in the same situation as you, I'm outgrowing my 1100 / 440 and I'm looking for something very similar. 1500 hours is great, I'm pretty sure that's pretty low. I'm looking for the same year or older, vf3/vf4 and I've seen lots of them with many more hours that are in the 30-40k range, with a 4th, but not 5th's . I know those 5th's are pricy so if your getting a practically new one that's already ready to go with the machine it's probably what I would call the high end of what I would consider a good deal.

I think your on the right track, that's probably a machine that will be great for what you're doing, but I could be off a bit as far as pricing goes add I have only been looking for a short time for myself. Best of luck, sounds like your doing very well!

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This might be better for that kind of $$$$$.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/machinery-for-sale-or-wanted/fs-okuma-genos-m560v-330911/
(if it meets your requirements)
Initial machine mentioned seems fairly pricey from here.

I dunno ...

That's some serious cash to put into a 12 year old machine unless you really need the size of a 60+ X or a 30+ Y with 4th and 5th...
Otherwise, even if you stay on the low side with 90K, that's a bit on the high side.
If OTOH he's in the 'hood of 120K, then absolutely no, regardless the low hours!
You could get a brand spankin' new VF4 + TR210 and options for about the same.


Don't get me wrong, I like Haas just fine ( for what they are and I have 5 of them ), but what some folks are asking for used ones are absolutely insane!
Hell, I am shitting bricks trying to decide if I really want to take on a 2000 vintage VF4 with gearbox for 20K!
Friend of mine is retiring and got 2 identical machines. Both spent it's life cutting brass, AL and very little steel/stainless, nothing in high production.
From the day go, they've been set to 50% rapid and never more, and I am pretty sure neither has seen spindle speeds above 4K. Like ever.

And yet, they are almost voting age and I am a bit worried about the "attitudes" associated with early adulthood.....

So, I just dunno...

Careful with those hours if the software has been reinstalled it will zero out. Mine did But a quick look around by someone that knows Haas should be able to tell if its that low of hours. Is that a good buy? I would do the online quote from the mother ship, just guessing but new will be 160ish
Gary
Seymour, make sure and change out the memory battery's and plan on a new monitor but that deal cant be beat

Our shop has a 2012 VF6-50 with a TR310. They had bought it to do some 17-4 clevis blocks that used to be done in several ops but now we do in 2 ops. We have had at least 50 service calls on this mill with a bulk of them being for the TR310 positioning inaccuracy and the rest for spindle problems. To date we have had the motor and gearbox replaced and are currently awaiting a new spindle whick is $15K. We have 3 Haas mills and the other 2 (UMC and and 90s VF6) have given us very little trouble. For that price I would ask to hear the mill run and have them take some cuts on stainless and aluminum to see what type of finish your going to end up with.

erikh said:

Greetings, future friends! I seek advice regarding whether I am getting a decent deal for a good machine - or about to make a huge mistake!

I am ready to step up from a Tormach PCNC1100, which has been terrific for learning and proving my ideas, to a 5-axis machine with vastly improved rigidity and throughput. My primary product lines are titanium firearms, specialty scientific incubators and phase-change heat pumps, robotics, and upmarket furniture and fixtures. I use Siemens NX for all CAD/CAM. Most of my mill work is on titanium 6al-4v and copper, but approximately 20% is other random stuff, such as mild steel, aluminum, stainless, etc. Business is good, and it's time to get serious.

I located a 2005 Haas VF-6/50 for sale with 4th and 5th axis support enabled and a TR210 table. The TR210 table was used only once, and the VF-6 has approximately 1500 hours on it. The seller is looking for somewhere between $90k and $120k for everything.

My research indicates that this is a decent deal, but I am putting a lot on the line. Although my energy, ambition, and determination are second to none, I am new to this field, and I lack experience. Any comments, questions, or opinions would be welcome. Thanks!

Click to expand...

Do you have a cad/cam software capable of 5 axis programming?
Do you need 5 axis machining?
As mentioned above I would take a good hard look at the Okuma Genos M560V. We have 2 of them and will be getting another soon. IMO it's the best 3 axis 40/20 machine on the market. And brand new it will run you $120k or less.

SeymourDumore said:

I dunno ...

That's some serious cash to put into a 12 year old machine unless you really need the size of a 60+ X or a 30+ Y with 4th and 5th...
Otherwise, even if you stay on the low side with 90K, that's a bit on the high side.
If OTOH he's in the 'hood of 120K, then absolutely no, regardless the low hours!
You could get a brand spankin' new VF4 + TR210 and options for about the same.


Don't get me wrong, I like Haas just fine ( for what they are and I have 5 of them ), but what some folks are asking for used ones are absolutely insane!
Hell, I am shitting bricks trying to decide if I really want to take on a 2000 vintage VF4 with gearbox for 20K!
Friend of mine is retiring and got 2 identical machines. Both spent it's life cutting brass, AL and very little steel/stainless, nothing in high production.
From the day go, they've been set to 50% rapid and never more, and I am pretty sure neither has seen spindle speeds above 4K. Like ever.

And yet, they are almost voting age and I am a bit worried about the "attitudes" associated with early adulthood.....

So, I just dunno...

Click to expand...

If there's two of those, and you only want one, I'd appreciate the info on the second one. [email protected]

Thanks

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Mtndew said:

Do you have a cad/cam software capable of 5 axis programming?
Do you need 5 axis machining?
As mentioned above I would take a good hard look at the Okuma Genos M560V. We have 2 of them and will be getting another soon. IMO it's the best 3 axis 40/20 machine on the market. And brand new it will run you $120k or less.

Click to expand...

Although I could mostly make do with a smaller working volume and 4-axis, and have been doing so, I would have to hire somebody to handle the inevitably error-prone drudgery of repositioning work pieces many times for progressive milling operations. For my applications, 5-axis means much higher throughput and better contouring. The only 2.5D parts I make are water blocks for maximal incubator temperature control authority and for dumping heat from electronics that must be silent or confined to extremely tight spaces.

I'm using Siemens NX for CAM; its five axis support is quite robust. My only complaints regarding this software are that it's expensive and bogs down when I use "pattern feature" to make 10k+ element grids for gas diffusion. Which really isn't what it's meant to do! So, I use Illustrator or Inkscape for that one thing, save as DXF, and take it to be cut at TechShop or one of the local places with a waterjet or plasma laser, when they are willing to do cuts for less than $3 a minute (this is unusual, but now and then, business is slow and I can get the rate down).


Huge thanks for your replies, everyone! It sounds like a very good idea for me to fly out there and test the machine in person. If I can lock in the whole package (mill and 5-axis table) for $100k or less, and the seller is OK with me going there and doing test cuts and verifying tolerances before completing the transaction, I'm going to go for it.

I'll update this thread as my odyssey continues. I plan to fly out to the machine's location 1-way and return aboard the big rig carrying it. A good friend with a CDL will be behind the wheel. Road trip!!!

WAAAAAAAAAAAAY bigger machine than you need.
a more moderate VF3 from that era could be in the 30-40 range and do just as much (small gun parts). For the price you're talking you could get two!!
If you are looking to maximize tool life and suface finishes the aforementioned m560 from okuma would be killer.

I used to run a VF6, similar vintage. Hated it. Too big to do standard sized parts, not enough rigidity to do the size parts that would fit.

It's my opinion that you would be much better served by going with a much smaller machine, with just 3 axis programming for now. 5 Axis programming is a whole 'nother can of worms, just getting the post processor to work right can be a months long proposition. Besides for 90-120k, you could buy 3 similar vintage VF2s with money left over.

Milicron had a couple of 5 axis Brother machines on eBay. Might still be there. $80K or so I believe, and 2012 flavor. This would be better "age of technology" machine than the older Haas. Another thought would be to buy 2 4 axis machine for the same money, if you have the room and the power. Would be more productive, unless you really need true 5 axis machining......

erikh said:

I'm using Siemens NX for CAM; its five axis support is quite robust. My only complaints regarding this software are that it's expensive and bogs down when I use "pattern feature" to make 10k+ element grids for gas diffusion. Which really isn't what it's meant to do!

Click to expand...

Fascinating thread! Looks like business is shaping up the way you wanted. Friend of mine has a VF3 and he does just that with it, TI. He had it since a few years now and never I've heard him saying that he was on the look-up for a better machine.

OT - NX will deal with large assembly much better than feature patterns. If you have 10k+ then it might worth looking into nxopen to import your feature(body) inside an assembly. Use expressions for your constraints. You get the idea

Luck for the road trip!

erikh said:

Although I could mostly make do with a smaller working volume and 4-axis, and have been doing so, I would have to hire somebody to handle the inevitably error-prone drudgery of repositioning work pieces many times for progressive milling operations. For my applications, 5-axis means much higher throughput and better contouring. The only 2.5D parts I make are water blocks for maximal incubator temperature control authority and for dumping heat from electronics that must be silent or confined to extremely tight spaces.

I'm using Siemens NX for CAM; its five axis support is quite robust. My only complaints regarding this software are that it's expensive and bogs down when I use "pattern feature" to make 10k+ element grids for gas diffusion. Which really isn't what it's meant to do! So, I use Illustrator or Inkscape for that one thing, save as DXF, and take it to be cut at TechShop or one of the local places with a waterjet or plasma laser, when they are willing to do cuts for less than $3 a minute (this is unusual, but now and then, business is slow and I can get the rate down).


Huge thanks for your replies, everyone! It sounds like a very good idea for me to fly out there and test the machine in person. If I can lock in the whole package (mill and 5-axis table) for $100k or less, and the seller is OK with me going there and doing test cuts and verifying tolerances before completing the transaction, I'm going to go for it.

I'll update this thread as my odyssey continues. I plan to fly out to the machine's location 1-way and return aboard the big rig carrying it. A good friend with a CDL will be behind the wheel. Road trip!!!

Click to expand...

Awesome that you are throwing yourself at this all... Great to see that Greg Jackson's original vision turning out to be the "Gateway drug" for a lot of people and serious machines (again and again it seems).

As someone that has done a lot in the horse business over the past 25 years and worked with horses all my life (practically 40 years +) you see "Deal wise" pretty much everything under the sun... Every shade of crookedness you can possibly imagine (lol).

So a VF6 with 50 taper and practically brand new Trunion (BIG one) / barely used on a machine that has 1500 hours over 12 years... That's three weeks a year at 8 hours/day/40 hour week for less than $100K... Brand new base price about $200K probably $230K+ to be useful.

If it seems a bit too good to be true then its usually not. (In the horse trade we say "Easily bought... Hard to keep".)

Normally there's not too much trouble selling a VF6.

Like buying a horse, if this is your first real horse/Haas for keeps (at least for a long while) take someone with you that has at least 25 years of experience of wheeling and dealing older/used Haas machines. (If you can).

It may be a great deal and the machine is in good nick and of a vintage known to be some of the good Haas years maybe? I'd definitely be skeptical of the 1500 hours(like the other s are saying), but on the other hand maybe it is true and perhaps you should not have posted this on PM forum lest someone beats you to it... (only kidding).

Good luck. Maybe post photos of the machine and maybe some of the Haas aficionados can talk you through stuff "Real time" almost. That might be fun.


P.s. Final note 60" machine with long Haas trunion is not the first thing that would pop into my mind for "Better contouring" (as you say) if you are doing sim 5 versus positional 2+3/3+2.

not 100% clear on what you are after.

Ta

Stupid question... Can you mix titanium and copper chips in a single machine safely ? Might lend credence to the TWO machine concept? At @EriKH what mistakes are you most afraid of? (As you mention it)? What in your eyes would be considered a show-stopper or potential fail that would nearly take you out of the game? (in your opinion?)

Thermite | Military Wiki | Fandom powered by Wikia

There are several different types of thermite reaction... Where copper oxide and freshly cut titanium comes to mind as both "fuel" and oxidizer... Work I have seen with copper tends to make very fine fillings/chips and Titanium when fresh cut has its own "activity" at the surface before it oxidizes. I'm super safety conscious and that's something you might do some research on and how that must be all handled from beginning to end. Maybe I'm being paranoid ;-) .

Copper II thermite reactions are super violent and throwing water on them just makes a bigger explosion. Maybe good to not blow your shop up? Does anyone actively mix titanium, and other metals with copper? [Most of the copper/nuclear work I'm familiar with the guys/shop bought specific and separate machines for doing really high end copper work... Just saying? ]. Not 100% sure why they did that?

cameraman said:

Awesome that you are throwing yourself at this all... Great to see that Greg Jackson's original vision turning out to be the "Gateway drug" for a lot of people and serious machines (again and again it seems).

As someone that has done a lot in the horse business over the past 25 years and worked with horses all my life (practically 40 years +) you see "Deal wise" pretty much everything under the sun... Every shade of crookedness you can possibly imagine (lol).

So a VF6 with 50 taper and practically brand new Trunion (BIG one) / barely used on a machine that has 1500 hours over 12 years... That's three weeks a year at 8 hours/day/40 hour week for less than $100K... Brand new base price about $200K probably $230K+ to be useful.

If it seems a bit too good to be true then its usually not. (In the horse trade we say "Easily bought... Hard to keep".)

Normally there's not too much trouble selling a VF6.

Like buying a horse, if this is your first real horse/Haas for keeps (at least for a long while) take someone with you that has at least 25 years of experience of wheeling and dealing older/used Haas machines. (If you can).

It may be a great deal and the machine is in good nick and of a vintage known to be some of the good Haas years maybe? I'd definitely be skeptical of the 1500 hours(like the other s are saying), but on the other hand maybe it is true and perhaps you should not have posted this on PM forum lest someone beats you to it... (only kidding).

Good luck. Maybe post photos of the machine and maybe some of the Haas aficionados can talk you through stuff "Real time" almost. That might be fun.


P.s. Final note 60" machine with long Haas trunion is not the first thing that would pop into my mind for "Better contouring" (as you say) if you are doing sim 5 versus positional 2+3/3+2.

not 100% clear on what you are after.

Ta

Stupid question... Can you mix titanium and copper chips in a single machine safely ? Might lend credence to the TWO machine concept? At @EriKH what mistakes are you most afraid of? (As you mention it)? What in your eyes would be considered a show-stopper or potential fail that would nearly take you out of the game? (in your opinion?)

Thermite | Military Wiki | Fandom powered by Wikia

There are several different types of thermite reaction... Where copper oxide and freshly cut titanium comes to mind as both "fuel" and oxidizer... Work I have seen with copper tends to make very fine fillings/chips and Titanium when fresh cut has its own "activity" at the surface before it oxidizes. I'm super safety conscious and that's something you might do some research on and how that must be all handled from beginning to end. Maybe I'm being paranoid ;-) .

Copper II thermite reactions are super violent and throwing water on them just makes a bigger explosion. Maybe good to not blow your shop up? Does anyone actively mix titanium, and other metals with copper? [Most of the copper/nuclear work I'm familiar with the guys/shop bought specific and separate machines for doing really high end copper work... Just saying? ]. Not 100% sure why they did that?

Click to expand...

Yikes... it's disturbing to consider that I've potentially "lucked out" so far in not having a titanium/copper chip fire on the Tormach. I always use water-based cutting fluid with titanium - perhaps this is what saved me. I am contacting Haas to see what they have to say about mixing chips of the various materials I deal with. Thank you very much for pointing out this concern!!

My lawyer is also very skeptical of this transaction and advises careful due diligence. I am under no obligation to pursue the deal, and I don't have the best feeling about it. Nothing good has ever come to me from proceeding in spite of a bad gut feeling, as far as I can recall. Certainly, many bad things have!

In fact, I just contacted the seller, and we agreed to call it off. He didn't seem to mind. If he's legit, he won't have a problem finding another customer, someone else will get a good deal, and that's fine with me.

So, I'm back to square one, and I'm eager to find the best machine for my company. Also, I'm very glad to have you guys on board, this time around.

Budget: approximately $120k

The stuff we most want to make, primarily from titanium:
* guns (but not gun barrels)
* computer components, such as front-panels, hard drive sleds, 120mm fan blades and frames
* hand-tools
* small scale rocket components
* small to mid scale robotics components
* small components for civilian aviation such as yokes, instrument faces, handles. Not engine blocks or propellers.
* single and double-screw compressors
* expensive furniture
* jewel boxes and other small, high-finish luxury items and artistic types of things

Essentials:
* rigidity and spindle power sufficient to keep .01" tolerance at high torque and low RPM for rapidly roughing out large volumes of titanium - without destroying my tooling
* .0005" accuracy and repeatability at 10,000 RPM
* 5-axis working volume sufficient to mill rifle receivers and screws for 10HP compressors on a tombstone
* 2.5D working volume sufficient to mill and engrave 5U 19" rackmount front-panels
* a good reputation for ease of use and reliability
* automatic tool changer
* automatic zero (IE, so I don't need to use my Haimer 3D taster)

Wish list:
* the largest possible 2.5D work volume; 15'x15'x5' would be awesome if it were somehow obtainable given my requirements and budget
* 15krpm spindle with excellent low-speed torque
* sufficient 5-axis rigidity and volume for milling out 21.5" wheel rims (I have the connections to sell these, though doing so doesn't interest me. But, it's an important fallback option)

If I'm looking at a choice between a) staying within budget and meeting my requirements or b) blowing my budget in order to obtain a huge 2.5D working volume and other wish list items, I have to go with (a).

I'm happy to consider any manufacturer, though I have heard a lot of good things about Haas and am inclined to go with them by default.

Really good spec list/requirements BTW.

Put thinking cap on... It's an interesting list.

As far as rocket components go do you have to make precision screw impellers or Similar?

erikh said:

<snip>
So, I'm back to square one, and I'm eager to find the best machine for my company. Also, I'm very glad to have you guys on board, this time around.

Budget: approximately $120k

The stuff we most want to make, primarily from titanium:
* guns (but not gun barrels)
* computer components, such as front-panels, hard drive sleds, 120mm fan blades and frames
* hand-tools
* small scale rocket components
* small to mid scale robotics components
* small components for civilian aviation such as yokes, instrument faces, handles. Not engine blocks or propellers.
* single and double-screw compressors
* expensive furniture
* jewel boxes and other small, high-finish luxury items and artistic types of things

Essentials:
* rigidity and spindle power sufficient to keep .01" tolerance at high torque and low RPM for rapidly roughing out large volumes of titanium - without destroying my tooling
* .0005" accuracy and repeatability at 10,000 RPM
* 5-axis working volume sufficient to mill rifle receivers and screws for 10HP compressors on a tombstone
* 2.5D working volume sufficient to mill and engrave 5U 19" rackmount front-panels
* a good reputation for ease of use and reliability
* automatic tool changer
* automatic zero (IE, so I don't need to use my Haimer 3D taster)

Wish list:
* the largest possible 2.5D work volume; 15'x15'x5' would be awesome if it were somehow obtainable given my requirements and budget
* 15krpm spindle with excellent low-speed torque
* sufficient 5-axis rigidity and volume for milling out 21.5" wheel rims (I have the connections to sell these, though doing so doesn't interest me. But, it's an important fallback option)

If I'm looking at a choice between a) staying within budget and meeting my requirements or b) blowing my budget in order to obtain a huge 2.5D working volume and other wish list items, I have to go with (a).

I'm happy to consider any manufacturer, though I have heard a lot of good things about Haas and am inclined to go with them by default.

Click to expand...

Just trying to mark your list up regarding sim 5 vs positional...

* guns (but not gun barrels)
* computer components, such as front-panels, hard drive sleds, 120mm fan blades and frames (sim-5 mandatory for fan blades?)
* hand-tools
* small scale rocket components (sim-5 mandatory or positional is perfectly acceptable?)
* small to mid scale robotics components
* small components for civilian aviation such as yokes, instrument faces, handles. Not engine blocks or propellers. (3 axis to 5 axes positional) ?
* single and double-screw compressors (theory says "3+2 " is possible but what a pain in the arse! sim-5?) :-)
* expensive furniture (I can't even imagine the furniture here ... Sounds very Philippe Starck/LA.
* jewel boxes and other small, high-finish luxury items and artistic types of things (This one kinda flags/scream really small tools and high spindle speed?).


Just out of interest is anything that you would cut from the list if you had to as far as the type of parts you want/need to make?

And do I read that right there is not so much of an emphasis on "mold work"... Just complex work pieces? And the occasional small mold?

{side note/off topic I used to be very very very stubornly against 5 axis and sim five axis figuring that I could carry on making fixtures ad infinitum, that was until I severed my right thumb tendon... (had a new dead guy's 9 inches of tendon put in). So for about a year I could barely write my own name legibly I'm fine now, can draw just as well as I used to and do other manual tasks, but that made me re-think entirely how I wanted to spend my time and what I would be able to do manually (literally with my hands)... So that tipped me all the way to sim 5 (especially for de-burring/chamfer along complex edges and break lines even though most of my geometries are really 3+2. + a lot of turning. In your case I don't (get the feeling)its going to be a stupid thing for you to go straight to sim-5/3+2 in baby steps in a highly structured way ).

A bunch of machines come to mind but the true need for sim 5 probably makes the biggest difference and the actual precision and surface finish of those surfaces. I think all my contoured/ sim five surfaces (in the works) are non-critical/ low precision , whereas the more orthogonal features/prismatic are high precision... And then there basic does the part look like sh*t or not lol ;-) [I know there are applications where the contoured complex surfaces have to be very precise indeed].

I would second the vote that a large VMC is not good for doing lots of ops on small parts. They are bigger in every way and add a lot of operator strain to change parts and tools compared to a typical 40x20 machine.

Also, you should take Haas's specs with a grain of salt. The VF6 weighs about 25K lbs. That's 10-15K lbs LESS than what a decent quality machine with that much travel should weigh.

If you want to mill compressor screws that seems like a lot of ferrous material removal and not really a HAAS thing.

There's one or maybe two new machines coming down the pike within the next month or so too that might do this very nicely for you... (I don't know how the pricing works out). This seems to be an increasingly "Hot" and competitive area between the various MTBs etc. So If I were you maybe plot things out for a couple of months before jumping into truck to pounce on a second hand machine before anyone else does (kind of thing)... Not that you can't find a good fit that way, but the new smaller machines seem to be really delivering. At EriKH your Titanium and lower end torque requirements seem really interesting to me.

@erikh stupid question: Would 60ft lbs of continuous torque at 800 rpm be sufficient (for 1 minute -ish continuous in cut torque)? Do you think? In terms of low-end torque for (30 taper spindle?). Is that sufficient for what you need?

thinking out loud...