4th and 5th axis positining Hurco, Brother, Haas? Need Advice.

Hey Guys,

I'm looking to add a machine for some in house parts we machine for our products. The parts are 1-2 inches in diameter and less than 1/2 inch thickness and always 316 stainless steel. They would be gripped from the ID and require some milling, slotting, and some small tapped holes (M1-M1.4). The parts require a 4th and 5th axis positioning, but do not need full 4th of 5th axis movement. I plan to run the machine about 10-20 hours a week so I'm not looking for anything new but rather a decent shape used machine that will hold +/- 0.002 tolerances. I have a Mazak SQT 15MS that I was hoping to use for this part, but the lack of a Y/B axis is restricting. I've thought of getting a used Integrex, but I think that may be overkill at the moment.

I've been looking at a Hurco VM1 and VM10U. The VM10U seems like a perfect fit, but they're hard to find and usually out of my budget. The max I'd like to spend on everything would be 35-45k. If I'm only doing 5 axis positioning would I just need a 4th and 5th axis table with a controller box? And then hook it up to the machine and trigger the table controller with M codes? If this is the case I was thinking a small Haas T5C or TRT160 on a Hurco VM1 would work? I also looked at some Brothers that I could fit a small table on. Would either of these machines work with the way I described sending M codes to the controller? Sorry for my lack of knowledge when it comes to this stuff. I'm so used to the Mazak, but I am ready to dive into a mill.

Any recommendations on mills and tables would be great. Also, the 14 tools on a Brother would work, but I wouldn't mind having more.

My experience with the controller box is that you have to be extremely focused when setting the machine up. You are correct, the box is triggered by an M code from the main program. The boxes have their own program and don't know where they are at any point in time. They just execute the next index when the M code is read.

If you need to re-run a tool you need to reset the rotary to the correct angle and reset the box program to the correct step or you will crash. It works fine once set up, but it's a real headache to get used to and a minor headache once you get used to it.

I think for that low of usage a really well built multi-station fixture might be better?

You can buy a nice small used HMC for way less than $35k.

Built in pallet changer in HMC keeps spindle on. Loading parts in pallet/tombstone is much easier than a VMC table.

Something like this: Kitamura H-3B SuperCell (5 Axis) Horizontal Mch Ctr - Fanuc - business/commercial - by owner - sale

You probably do not want the pallet pool though. That machine looks big in those pictures, but it's not. I have an H300 and it's about 6' by 8'

Garwood said:

You can buy a nice small used HMC for way less than $35k.

Built in pallet changer in HMC keeps spindle on. Loading parts in pallet/tombstone is much easier than a VMC table.

Something like this: Kitamura H-3B SuperCell (5 Axis) Horizontal Mch Ctr - Fanuc - business/commercial - by owner - sale

You probably do not want the pallet pool though. That machine looks big in those pictures, but it's not. I have an H300 and it's about 6' by 8'

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I was considering a HMC but space is limited. 6'x 8' isn't too bad, but what worries me is the age of a machine like that. Most of the used HMC for sale in my area (Detroit) seem to be very heavily used. Any other recommendations for more compact HMC's? Thanks!

I would not recommand an external contolled 4th axis. in my opinion this can only be usefull when you have a machine that you have verry large series of the same part. as eayer someone already mentionned it does take verry much attention when setting up your machine.
i would shure look at the brothers if you are planning on making the little treads.

I don't understand the poo-poo on indexers. They are very easy to set up and also simple to remove when you aren't using them.

I use a Yuasa indexer on several of my own machines and setup and run a Haas indexer on a friends machines all the time. They are real easy to use and work great running on M codes for any kind of indexing positioning. The hardest part is properly integrating the M-code stuff if a machine isn't setup for it.

I have never run into a situation where I need to mill on a part while rotating the the indexer. If you need to do that better get stuff that's tied into the machine.

Garwood said:

I don't understand the poo-poo on indexers. They are very easy to set up and also simple to remove when you aren't using them.

I use a Yuasa indexer on several of my own machines and setup and run a Haas indexer on a friends machines all the time. They are real easy to use and work great running on M codes for any kind of indexing positioning. The hardest part is properly integrating the M-code stuff if a machine isn't setup for it.

I have never run into a situation where I need to mill on a part while rotating the the indexer. If you need to do that better get stuff that's tied into the machine.

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This is exactly how I was planning to use it, strictly for positioning and then milling and drilling at those positions. It seems like the externally controlled indexer is the way to go. I'll only be running a single part on this machine, so I'm not worried about having to set up different parts/fixtures/etc.

I found a really good deal on a 2001 Brother TC-S2A with A00 control. I'm planning on using the conversational programming since the part is very simple and I happen to like conversational Would the Brother have the open M codes to trigger an external index controller?

mazaksqt said:

This is exactly how I was planning to use it, strictly for positioning and then milling and drilling at those positions. It seems like the externally controlled indexer is the way to go. I'll only be running a single part on this machine, so I'm not worried about having to set up different parts/fixtures/etc.

I found a really good deal on a 2001 Brother TC-S2A with A00 control. I'm planning on using the conversational programming since the part is very simple and I happen to like conversational Would the Brother have the open M codes to trigger an external index controller?

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Yes the A00 control brother has 8 mappable inputs and outputs. You can map an output to M10 for instance. There is also an MFIN input for confirmation (finish signal). When using the conversational side use Signal Out to trigger the indexer. M10 would be signal out 10.

what is price difference on a machine controlled 4th axis and a Mcode with external control?

A Brother seems to be an awfully small machine for a trunnion.
Prolly doesn't leave you much Z travel.

They're cute.
They're fast.
But unless you are running balls out, prolly not the best bet in this app.

I'd get something more traditional.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

BROTHERFRANK said:

Yes the A00 control brother has 8 mappable inputs and outputs. You can map an output to M10 for instance. There is also an MFIN input for confirmation (finish signal). When using the conversational side use Signal Out to trigger the indexer. M10 would be signal out 10.

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Thanks for the explanation. This is good to know since I closed the deal today on the Brother. Now its time to find a small rotary tilt table. I'll be looking for a used one so it may take some time...