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65mm collet system, hardinge, royal, hainbuch?

SND

Diamond
Joined
Jan 12, 2003
Location
Canada
What do you guys recommend as the best value vs quality, easy to set up and use for a 65mm collet chuck?
I won't need a ton of collets, just 4-5 sizes does all my needs.

First thought was hardinge Flex-C A style, then I started looking at old threads on here and other names come up and now I don't know what to pick anymore. Hainbuch(spanntop combi pull back?) and royal(pull to a stop)?. Royal appears to have more range, .062" vs .040?
One thing that seems neat about the hardinge is they have a 5C adapters to fit it as well, I have a full set of hardinge 5Cs collets for my small stuff already.

There was also a few mentions of package deals on these systems but I can't find anything online now, are they just once a year promos or something?

while here, with regards to 8" chuck soft jaws, what's the best place for good quality and price?

thanks
 
I have the Flex C system.....love it..........I would have purchased any of the 3 manufacturers you mentioned, but at the time Hardinge gave me 5 collets and the install tool for free. Heck of a deal. I run mostly bar work through it so I opted for the pull back style. If you want to do 2nd op work, a dead length might be a better route.

As for soft jaws................... http://monsterjaws.com/8-b-208-type-jaws/ They throw you a discount when you buy 10 or more sets. They are machined on all sides and are very nicely made.
 
I noticed the hardinge DL model, about $600USD more, worth it? I guess popular for sub spindles. It sounded like maybe the pull back type grips harder? I have some work that would be out of 2" bar likely pre-cut into 9" slugs, got about 1.5" to hold onto, rough/profile, then gets flipped and held on a 1.020" dia, but I do need to hold length within about .005" there. If the dia is consistent would a regular pull back Type A be ok or nah? how consistent is pull back?
Usually with my 5C so long as dia is consistent length stays pretty good too.
 
Pull back holds better because as you turn tward the collet pushing the bar back it gets tighter. Dead length does the opposite. With pull back your z will shift with variation in diameter. I went with dead length Royal and like it. Haven't had a problem pushing back. Collets can get expensive buying a full set so the range of the Royal was nice.
 
I was thinking push to close vs. pull back only.................Yeah my bad....:crazy:.....I do have the DL version. I don't use it very often. There are no problems holding length with the stop.............

As far as grip.......I really pour the coals to bar stock sometimes and I have yet to see any push back. Even when I bar feed and only holding onto the last 1/2" +/- of a 2.500"Ø bar, it's as solid as a rock.
 
Are these collets nominal size, so if its a 1", even if they say it +/-.040, good luck stretching it out to get a 1.020" part in there?(probably have to get a 26mm) or are they on the large side to start with? or does the clamp/unclamp on the cnc push it bigger to get the part in?

I also saw they make serrated and smooth ID's, what do you guys use the most and is the grab quite significantly better with the serrated?

thanks
 
When the collets are open they are "larger" than nominal size. But they are ground to size. I haven't yet gripped parts larger than nominal, but have done 2nd ops on parts under size with no problems.

I have all smooth collets. I have yet to have any push back problems. These flex style collets have tremendous gripping.
 
I don't know about the others, but I know that Hardinge offers the simple "pull back", the "dead length" (push to close), and they also have a "pull back" that you can have an adjustable dead stop (doesn't move with the collet) in it. This may be what Dave has? I don't know the nomenclature names. If you want to doo some chucker work, the one with the internal dead stop could be very nice as your Z won't move with a change in diameter.

On lathes - especially bar fed ones, as a rule - we run serrated in the mains and smooths in the subs. Of course there are times when serrated's are not prefered.

One nice thing about the Hardinge units that I like (and the others may offer it too?) is that they have some S master collets available too. I don't recall the sizes available, but for the 65mm unit, I bought some that will take S22 pads I think. I wouldn't be surprised if they offer it in S20 as well.

A) The S pads are much cheaper than the rubber mounted ones.
B) I have oodles of S22 and S20 pads around.

The [5] C style adaptors is new to me. That would be interesting to see.
Seems like you would need to turn your pressure down before you locked up on one of those?

Also - as posted above, the dead length ones lose grip as you push on them, but also - as a rule - dead length chucks suffer from chip (fines) getting into the assy and limiting the stroke length of the push sleeve - resulting in losing grip once it gits full. Not as much of a problem on main spindles, but subs - or chucker apps where chips are able to get up in the collet - it is a MUCH bigger deal! But I have had my fair share of issues on the main as well.

The collet nut on the Greenlee's are drilled out to allow fines to be pushed out the front of the nut. The Hardinge B65 (Not the collet chuck in question here) is not drilled, but I have threatened to drill them out. Instead I just went and bought pullbacks to replace them and have much better luck, although we did have a job that we needed to put a B65 back on for. First that it has been out of the toolbox in 15 yrs!


--------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
Thanks for the replies. I'll check a bit more into the S type, seen the collets online but looks like few still make the chuck for it.
Just noticed hardings master thing to adapt the 2.

I'm leaning a bit toward the DL pusher style now that I see they have machinable collets. It would definitely make length repeat better if I had a bunch of parts to modify that need to be held in a collet.

I'll get prices/availability on each and go from there. Lots to sort out.
 
One more name to throw out there is Microcentric.
This is a push-to close dead length: Model CB65-ND/A6, CB-ND Collet Chucks - Dead Length Design On MicroCentric Corp.

They also have a pull-to-close dead length version: CB-NDR/S Collet Chucks - Pull to Close Dead Length Design for Servo Bar Loaders On MicroCentric Corp.
Which is better for barfeeders.

Both of the 65 sizes can have an S20 or S22 master, for which collet pads can be had from Hardinge in the $90 range serrated or smooth, or you can get the E-collets for $60 or so.
Nice thing about the flex-collets ( not just Microcentric, but all ) is that the clamping range is so large that you can re-bore soft collets multiple times for 2nd op work.

If would think twice about getting a pullback, non dead-length setup if you ever need 2nd op work done!!!
 
I'm really leaning toward the Royal Accu-Length right now, if I'm reading it right and from the assembly drawings they appear to mount directly as one unit to the spindle, the other brands appear to have a plate that first bolts on, then the closer gets bolted to it, is that right?

I also have to figure out if there's a different adapter for different drawtubes too, would kinda suck to get something and find out it won't thread eh. Collet and handle to get them in and out costs aren't so lovely... about $500cad per collet, our dollar ain't worth much. :(
 
Your drawtube adapter will be specific to the machine/model you order it for, and quite possibly will not fit anything else you own.
IOW an A2-6 spindle from Mori might have a different drawtube than say an A2-6 from Doosan, and different than an A2-6 from Mazak ...

So that one, you will probably have to eat.
At first purchase, the adapter is included with the chuck ( or closer ), but for any other machine you either have to purchase or make a different one.

Yes, the solid, on-size collets are pricey, but for most of the straight bar work you're better off getting an S-master, and just plunk-in the hard S collet pads for something
in the range of $70-ish per set.
For accurate 2nd op work, you can get the Emergency pads and bore your own.

As far as Royal not needing an adapter plate, that depends on what size chuck you get for what spindle nose.
I have one for an A2-6, and it does need an adapter plate. They claim that theirs is a tapered plate which does not need adjustment, but mehh...
I was thinking the same thing 10 years ago. My Microcentric has the 4 adjusting screws on the plate, while the Royal for the other machine does not.
Frankly, if you adjust it the first time, after removal and re-installation on the same machine there has not been any need to re-adjust again.
I did mark the location of plate-to-spindle nose, and then chuck-to-plate orientation, and the runout has always been within a few tenths.

Now, when you say "Accu-Length", are you're talking about the chuck on page30 of this PDF? : http://www.royalproducts.com/content/files/products/CNC_LP_Collet_Chucks.pdf

If yes, then:
Pros: I like the fact that it has a smaller diameter nose, therefore it's better on a Y axis as there will never be any interference when using multiple tools on the same station.
I also like the workstop setup, as it can be set and assembled outside of the machine before putting it in the chuck.

Cons: It has a ridiculously small gripping range!!!
Depending on what kind of raw bar you put in it, you may be fighting the friggin' thing to pull it through, or dance on the very edge of gripping range.
Also, that very small travel gets limited even further when it builds up with chips inside. Yes, mine was on a live tooled machine which produces smaller
chips when milling, but F@ck me if I didn't have to take the thing off every 2 months or so, disassemble and clean it completely just so it's usable again.

Please note, I am not in any way advocating one brand or another, but if you go with Royal, at least consider the Quick-Grip Accu-Length chucks!
Except for one thing to note: The Microcentric Dead-Length equivalent is a Push-to-close, but it also has a provision for an internal, dead-length workstop.
From Royal, that is only available as a pull-to-close, non dead-length chuck.
 
The royal accu-length I'm looking at is for the QG-65 collets, page 11. says .060" range, so probably +/-.030, hardinge says +/-.020" on their flex-c. www.royalproducts.com/img/category/upload/CNC_Collet_Chucks.pdf
I may also end up getting the royal 5C chuck though if I do enough small work on it, I got a full set of hardinge 5c collets anyhow.

I just sorted out what thread is in the chuck, M75x2. Trying to figure out how many holes are on the A2-6 spindle face, is there normally at least 12? its a doosan lynx. Right now I'm hoping to have all that stuff here when the machine arrives so the tech can go over any of those chuck changes and messing around with me, but it almost sounds like I'd need the machine here first to some out a few details, ugh.
 
Any of the three you initially mentioned would be fine. Personally, I prefer the Hardinge because I already get excellent support from them.

I actually have all three companies on various machines. One lathe has the Hainbuch but I'm using a mixture of Hainbuch and Flex-C collets on it.
Another has the Royal chucks but I'm using the Flex-C collets exclusively. At the time of purchasing the machine (Nakamura NTY3) we initially spec'd the Hardinge but it was too large round (they didn't have the lower profile chuck available, yet) so the machine dealer ordered the Royal instead.

My only issue with Hainbuch is they are slower to respond to calls and emails.
 
The royal accu-length I'm looking at is for the QG-65 collets, page 11. says .060" range, so probably +/-.030, hardinge says +/-.020" on their flex-c. www.royalproducts.com/img/category/upload/CNC_Collet_Chucks.pdf
I may also end up getting the royal 5C chuck though if I do enough small work on it, I got a full set of hardinge 5c collets anyhow.

I just sorted out what thread is in the chuck, M75x2. Trying to figure out how many holes are on the A2-6 spindle face, is there normally at least 12? its a doosan lynx. Right now I'm hoping to have all that stuff here when the machine arrives so the tech can go over any of those chuck changes and messing around with me, but it almost sounds like I'd need the machine here first to some out a few details, ugh.

First, that clamping range with the Flex collets are typical. Royal says .062, Microcentric is approx the same.
It is a steeper taper than the C-style collets, so the same amount of travel of the drawtube means much larger clamping range on the Flex collets.

Now for the spindle taper...
If that's an A2-6, then you do not need to worry about the spindle taper or the number of holes.
They are used variously. 3 jaw chuck typically use only 3, 2 jaws use maybe two or 6, collet chucks use 6, but not necessarily the same ones.
The 12 tapped holes are there to accommodate all.

What you need is the drawtube thread ( which you know M42x2), and the projection from spindle-face with drawtube extended and retracted.
Doosan can absolutely send you the spindle dimensions in PDF, so you can get the chuck ahead of time, no need to match it on-site.

As far as 5C, I have one for every lathe I own, some have both, a pullback and a dead-length.
I don't care what the general opinion is, if a part is suitable for a 5C, then there is nothing more versatile out there.
If you can swing it, get it. Don't even need the dead length necessarily, as Hardinge has a really cool dead-length collet setup for pullback chucks.
 
So far I'm getting much better pricing on Royal, but waiting on 1 more hardinge dealers quote. Should sort that out early tomorrow, it been long to get quotes on a lot of things...

Do you guys know if expanding mandrels can be used on a push to close system, looks to me like it needs to be a pull to close system?

thanks for all the help & info!
 
You can't buy direct from Hardinge accrost the 49th?



Your machine will support either push or pull.
It's a dbl acting system.
There will likely be a valve, knob, or switch of some sort on your hydro system that will change direction of "CLOSE" is all.


--------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
So far I'm getting much better pricing on Royal, but waiting on 1 more hardinge dealers quote. Should sort that out early tomorrow, it been long to get quotes on a lot of things...

Do you guys know if expanding mandrels can be used on a push to close system, looks to me like it needs to be a pull to close system?

thanks for all the help & info!

Naturally, you're talking about the 5C chuck there as I know of no internal holding possiblity with the flex chucks.

Yes, the push-to-close can be used with expanding mandrels, but you will loose the inherent dead-length feature of the expanding collet.
 
I got Hardinge Flex-C pull to close with dead length stop, 2 pc closer absolutely love it.
Royal_ass always makes thing rosier than they are... got one of the acuu_shit 5C closers, not a bad unit but there is anothing accu about it.
 








 
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