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Adjusting work offsets to compensate for part alignment issues....normal?

geoffw

Aluminum
Joined
Feb 21, 2014
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Iam still very much a novice when it comes to machining.

Iam using BobCad V26 on a 98 Haas VF2 and I have noticed that on every part that I program and cut, when I go to machine the backside of the part to remove the work holding stock, the 2nd and 3rd Operation features are ALWAYS off.

I always have to mess with the work offset of the 2nd and 3rd operations in order to get them to line up where they are supposed to.

Is this normal? What am I doing wrong?

Should I be compensating in the program or is this practice OK?

-Geoff
 
Not quite sure what you are saying but it sounds like you are doing a stock off operation. This may be a dumb question but are you setting Y off of the fixed jaw or movable jaw?
 
I always use the fixed jaw.

Whats a stock off operation?

Basically I start with a block of aluminum, I machine everything that I can on the first side, then flip it over onto another vice with a custom soft jaw to match the profile of the part. I then remove the remaining stock from the backside of the part and finish any other machining operations such as chamfers, drilling etc.

However, I can never seem to get the chamfers, etc to line up correctly without adjusting the work offsets..

Am I making sense?
 
Well, are they off in X, Y, Z, or all three?

How are you setting X? Probing your part? Edge finder? Indicating a bored/reamed hole in the soft jaw (best option)? I mean, yes, the work offsets are there to allow you to dial in your part... Are you having to adjust from part to part, or is it just the first one you run each time?
 
Are the parts moving in the vice due to tool pressure?

If so any feature you are usng to use as setting position in future machining operations are in the wrong place by a few thou.
 
Im using a Mitutoyo edge finder.

Parts are off in X and Y only.

Once I get the part dialed in 100%, I can do a production run and never have to adjust the offsets again.

The parts definitely aren't moving, my fixtures are on point. Nearly every operation has a custom soft jaw made for it and I usually grip the part with at least 1/2" of material over 6".

I have been indicating off the rear right edge of the stock (-x,-y)

So indicating a hole is the ticket eh? Should I use a Co-Ax Indicator for that?
 
picking up a thru hole will be the most accurate way. if you milled the jaws to fit the outside shape of the part it will get you pretty damn close and will most likely only be off slightly in the direction the vise clamps. picking up a hole once clamped will avoid this problem. if you have relatively close features being consistant on clamping is key, a torque wrench will keep you very good in that sense and takes no extra time to use. as far as how to pick up the hole, I use a co-ax then throw in a regular indicator because I have a crappy co ax that's only good for a couple thousanths. other things to consider are what kind of vise you use. ive noticed that a chick vise can have inaccuracies in z axis from the jaws lifting up.
 
If you flip a part using normal vice without a dedicated fixture setup, then you need to indicate the part really well. If you were say relying on the back face of the jaws to reference, or other index stops, sometimes its not good enough if you clamp hard or you don't put it in exactly right. Basically you need to use a touch probe to re-zero the part after its been moved. Either renishaw style probes or you can use a haimer.
 
+1 to the Haimer Taster. Havent had it for long but I trust it so much more than trying to figure out where an edge finder "breaks over". Plus no more pesky .100" offset. Bonus is you write down the Z value of your table and you just touch off the face to find Z-top of the workpiece at the same time. You remove the vices, you can set them back to exactly the same point (or modify the fixture offsets slightly to match). Also perfectly good as a test indicator to assess hard jaw squareness, plate setup, etc. If (when? :)) you get it you need a dedicated 3/4" EM holder.
 
I believe your problem is in the edge finder. (I'm assuming a wiggler type)
link--> Mitutoyo 050101, Edge Finder, 3/8" Dia. Shank, .200" Dia. Tip: Precision Measurement Products: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
If my assumption is correct, those are really only good for +-.005" in my shop.

You could hardly do better than a Haimer 3D or a spindle probe.
Link--> Universal 3D-Sensor - HAIMER USA

Just my $0.02

Doug.

Agree 100%
I've been in the machining business for 30 years, and just couldn't get as accurate as I need to be with my edge finder. And I've tried a LOT of different ones.
Either it's the way I use them or what, but they were usually off by .003" when I checked the part with an indicator.
Bought the $650 Haimer probe and never had an issue since. More versatile too!
 
I have been indicating off the rear right edge of the stock (-x,-y)

You mean stock as in the material you were just holding on too and are going to cut away? If so I'd say this is the bulk of your problem. You will notice that all suggestions above are locating off something you machined already.
 
I do this all the time, machining both sides. I find I need to get location within a couple of tenths, usually a cosmetic problem but sometimes a functional one too. Steps in vertical walls are the most obvious flaw. A tenth is easy to see, three tenths will not be smoothed by the vibratory finishing machine and will be obvious in a finished, anodized part.

If the vise is not perfectly aligned, you will double your error when you flip the part, i.e., if one end is +0.001 in Y, then when you flip your part it will be off by 0.002 at that end.

Picking up a corner doubles you error vs. picking up something in the center. In the above example if the zero reference is in the center of the vise on both op1 and op2, you will have only 0.001 error vs. 0.002 using the corner.

Thermal stability can play a role: some C frame VMCs (maybe all?) change in Y with temperature change. Often there is a temperature change between op1 and op2, later in the day or the machine is not working as hard on one vs. the other.

I started out using an edge finder on a corner. Moved to a Blake Coax in tooling holes. Then a Haimer 3D in tooling holes. Then Renishaw electronic probes. Now my method is this:

* On first side, interpolate tooling holes (sometimes existing holes has be used) through the part blank as far left and right as possible.

* Flip, locate using one tooling hole and set datum or workshift, use second tooling hole to shift workspace rotation, aligning coordinate space with part. I use a Renishaw e-probe and programmed inline probing cycles.

* Rough second side features, leaving maybe 0.003 on perimeter features.

* Just prior to finish ops (profiling edge and round overs and chamfers), again e-probe tooling hole for position. I do not do rotation as this does not seem to drift. Position will drift for the first 2 hours or so (mostly in Y), then stabilize. Total drift from just after machine warm up to stable is about 0.0013. After lunch - or any break which idles the machine for more than 15 minutes - drifts again for an hour or two before stabilizing.

Using this method I have gotten reliable accuracy. It removes vise accuracy from the picture for the most part. Also removes edge accuracy of the blank from consideration. On small parts I do not probe for rotation, on large parts this is critical. With good soft jaws on a small part, once the machine has stabilized thermally, I do not need to probe each part for initial location. With good soft jaws, provided they have good locating features, I only need to probe the first part for rotation after first mounting the jaws except for very large parts. With good soft jaws on medium sized parts (8" lets say) I only need to probe the first part for location for roughing, but I still probe every part for location drift before finishing.
 
Nearly every operation has a custom soft jaw made for it and I usually grip the part with at least 1/2" of material over 6".

I have been indicating off the rear right edge of the stock (-x,-y)


Forget the method of indicating for a moment, and see if you can dial in a good part, then put a reference hole ( acurate only to location and diameter )
into the custom jaw.
Use this reference hole in the future for picking up your part 0 ( even if you have to shift it somewhere else )

But, as was just mentioned, if you are at any time locating off of an unmachined surface ( from the previous op ), then all bets are off just as your parts are.
 
Also sometimes machined radii in softjaws don't match up (an internal radius on the softjaw is too big and/or an external radius on the part is too small) when you machine exactly the outside profile from your CAD model. This can be mitigated by making the softjaw corners relieved or simply making the radius smaller, ensuring that there will be a gap on that surface.

There's a LOT to making good, accurate, repeatable softjaws. I've learned, by tracing through sources of errors over the last 3 years, that there are many many many tricks to get them to come out right the first time.

Matt
 
WOW,

You guys really opened my eyes to a lot of flaws in my programming and fixturing workflow.

First order of business is changing my reference points and getting a haimer!

Thanks to everyone who responded...MUCH appreciated.

-Geoff
 
WOW,

You guys really opened my eyes to a lot of flaws in my programming and fixturing workflow.

First order of business is changing my reference points and getting a haimer!

Thanks to everyone who responded...MUCH appreciated.

-Geoff

Even after all of that, there will still be more to learn. I find that I'm improving my process all the time!
 
Does anyone know how to set a reference point/origin in BobCad to a hole?

If i don't have a hole to reference, whats the next best way?
 








 
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