Any retrofit window safety containment plates for Haas VF series machines?

CNC2020 · Oct 9, 2017

Is anyone aware of any kits to install a metal grate onto Haas VF series machine windows for enhanced containment to prevent parts from being ejected through their glass?

DMF_TomB · Oct 9, 2017

CNC2020 said:
Is anyone aware of any kits to install a metal grate onto Haas VF series machine windows for enhanced containment to prevent parts from being ejected through their glass?

expanded steel metal mesh easy to buy and cut to size. 1/4 polycarbonite plastic usually you can hit all day with a hammer and it wont shatter. 3/8 and 1/2 is very tough stuff. not like acrylic plastic which shatters easy

CNC2020 · Oct 9, 2017

We could fabricate something but was hoping to find something ready to install for less chances of litigation issues should something happen despite the enhanced protection.

Larry Dickman · Oct 9, 2017

CNC2020 said:
Is anyone aware of any kits to install a metal grate onto Haas VF series machine windows for enhanced containment to prevent parts from being ejected through their glass?

We've had good luck using a vise to keep the parts from hitting the glass.

Limy Sami · Oct 9, 2017

CNC2020 said:
We could fabricate something but was hoping to find something ready to install for less chances of litigation issues should something happen despite the enhanced protection.

(my italics)
If you're that concerned you should either tighten up your operating procedures and / or talk to Haas.

chip_maker · Oct 9, 2017

Why do you feel that what haas put there (polycarbonate) is insufficient?

Are your machines modified for special processes?

mhajicek · Oct 9, 2017

If your machines are regularly throwing parts you need to replace your operators and/or rethink your procedures. The primary function of the enclosure is to keep chips and coolant from getting all over the floor. There are ways to misuse a machine that a full steel enclosure will not protect you from. Try overspeeding a large indexable face mill, and those inserts can detach and punch right through the sheet metal like bullets. You can't stupid proof a machine.

ewlsey · Oct 9, 2017

You can tighten up anything you want, but shit still happens. I've seen all manner of parts exit the machine. Sometimes they take whole doors, tools, turrets, etc with them. Lathes are more dangerous, but mills can be killers too. If you think that 1/4" plexiglass is going to save you, you're just dreaming.

I think you are on the right path.

CNC2020 · Oct 9, 2017

We have several machines and it is extremely rare for a part to get thrown. However, we had an incident where the part in a Haas machine was not contained after a coolant failure resulted in the part being ejected. Our other machines, Mori and Okumas, have a metal lattice in addition to the laminated glass, which provides better protection. People have been killed when parts go through the safety glass. We don't want that to happen to any of our staff so we're being proactive about their safety.

Cycle1000 · Oct 10, 2017

The answer is to contact your local glass company and have them cut you a piece of reinforced safety glass that fits your rubber. Please come back and tell what that costs just for grins.
Gary

Limy Sami · Oct 10, 2017

ewlsey said:
You can tighten up anything you want, but shit still happens. I've seen all manner of parts exit the machine. Sometimes they take whole doors, tools, turrets, etc with them. Lathes are more dangerous, but mills can be killers too. If you think that 1/4" plexiglass is going to save you, you're just dreaming.

I think you are on the right path.

Exactly, there's a guy on PM (or he was) who had a lump of plastic come out of a mill, ..........can't remember the details but it sure left it's mark .....and it ain't pretty.

sfriedberg · Oct 10, 2017

Problem is, if a hunk of something comes out with enough momentum to break 3/8" of polycarbonate, it's got more than enough momentum to rip right through any reasonable weight of expanded mesh. 3/4" opening #9 flattened expanded mesh is about the heaviest readily available, weighing 1.7lb/sq.ft.

Anything but the stock windows is going to require modified gaskets, retainers, etc. For visibility's sake, I'd prefer 1/2" polycarbonate with a sacrificial layer of tempered glass on the inside to keep the plastic from getting scratched up by chips.

Chip Chester · Oct 10, 2017

Race car catalogs, like Pegasus, Summit, and Jeg's, have coarse-mesh nets made of seat-belt material that are available in a few car-window sized finished pieces. They're designed mostly to keep your head in a car with no windows, and (larger) flying car parts from other crashed cars out of your cabin. They might be worth a look, if their ratings are in-line with your needs. Pricing is darn reasonable. Still have to hook them to something substantial.

Chip

D Dubeau · Oct 10, 2017

Cue drill stuck in monitor picture in 3....2.....

G00 Proto · Oct 10, 2017

We had a 12"x12" sheet of .1875" thick aluminum come through the factory plexiglass on a Haas (it might have been a Cincinnati, been a few years). They used to hold down parts with superglue or two sided tape. Tried to deck of the sheet with a 3" shell mill at 10k RPM and the tape let go. It seems like we had to replace both the window and the door frame. Fortunately, the operator was using the restroom... which prevented him from soiling himself and/or being eviscerated. That was long enough ago that the only digital camera in the building had to be checked out from the bosses office, so no picture to share.

mhajicek · Oct 10, 2017

I've heard of parts punching right through the steel door on a lathe, flying right through where the operator's head was a moment before and embedding in the top cinder block of the opposite wall. Less likely on a mill, but if a part pulls up wrapped around a large indexable drill you never know. If a part is seriously determined to fly you're not guaranteed to stop it unless you make a full enclosure out of AR500 armor plate. If you're worried about liability I would think the most legally safe option would be to leave it stock; if you touch it you're taking responsibility. If you're worried about operator safety then the most effective course is to minimize the chance of throwing a part.

Regarding that last, in addition to workholding, programming with HSM or dynamic paths will significantly reduce the force trying to pull the part out of the workholding. Also use torque wrenches to standardize vise and fixture clamping force, and use dovetail jaws and dovetail prepped stock whenever possible for 1st ops. Using dovetails also means you need less material to hold onto which saves material cost.

If after all that you still have to take a cut that chances throwing a part, you can choose the direction that it will throw if it does, by orienting the part and cut.

garyhlucas · Oct 10, 2017

On that litigation thing, l learned a valuable lesson when I got personally sued for an injury on a machine I built. The injury was because the customer was using razor sharp blades that were way to long and made for another machine, and they had operator reaching in the machine with no guards to clear jams. So why didn’t he sue his wealthy employer instead of poor old me?

By workman’s compensation law an employee can sue everyone EXCEPT their employer for a workplace injury. The exception being if really willful negligence can be proven by taking them to criminal court.

Two things came out of that. I have no hesitation adding any kind of safety device I see fit to protect our employees from injury because talking to grieving widow at a funeral is really no fun.

Second, I considered doing freelance consulting and realized there is no way to protect myself from a lawsuit FOREVER, because insurance ends when you stop paying. So I had 3 freelance jobs, all paid as hourly wages with the proper deductions and a W2. I was protected by the workmans comp law, and the customer was protected from me because I was an employee.

Good to hear you are concerned.

SeymourDumore · Oct 10, 2017

sfriedberg said:
Problem is, if a hunk of something comes out with enough momentum to break 3/8" of polycarbonate, it's got more than enough momentum to rip right through any reasonable weight of expanded mesh.
.

I would have never thought of Polycarbonate having the ability to stop projectiles, until I saw the test shields from the makers of riot gear ( both, police and military )
You would be absolutely floored how little impact an AK, AR or a shotgun can make on a 3/8 thick shield.

I certainly wouldn't want to hold it in my hand for the test, but would have - after seeing the results - no problem standing behind it.

Which now brings up the Haas issue...
If the machine is of the older variety, then those doors and side panels are an absolute joke, designed only to keep coolant in ( sort of failing even at that task )
The newer ones however likely to blow off the door long before the plastic is penetrated.
As far as the Mori-style lattice, it is on the outside of the door. When a 2" x 3" long slug came out of the lathe chuck a while back, the window ( double pane glass and poly )
shattered into sharp little pieces, but the lattice didn't even got touched.
Had it been a much bigger workpiece, I bet it still wouldn't have escaped without taking the whole door with it.
As it is I've had nothing but a change of shorts to deal with at the impact, but needed a half of box of band-aid after cleaning the glass out of the frame when replacing the window.

machtool · Oct 11, 2017

Profile of the O.P CNC 2020. "Interests" - Shop Safety, "Occupation" - Manager.

Putting 2 + 2 together = Safety O.H.S Rep.

Would have thought the factory windows were legal complaint. Good luck finding anything retrofit over and above that.

I'd suggest waterjet cutting your own our of armour plate.

Regards Phil.

dsergison · Oct 11, 2017

install another layer of polycarb by putting rivetnuts in the door and screwing a larger panel over the existing panel. even if it pops the inside window out of the gasket the outside window will catch it. the inner 2 surfaces should stay clean forever so clarity not affected much.

Any retrofit window safety containment plates for Haas VF series machines?

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