Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Largest Manufacturing Technology Community on the Web
Stay Connected:
Axis Confusion 3+2 / 4+1 / True Fifth Axis
- Thread starter runcnc
- Start date
- Replies 31
- Views 12,142
Larry Dickman
Titanium
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2014
- Location
- Temecula, Ca
Very simple. A full rotary axis will do simultaneous interpolation. So a full five axis can move in XYZAB at the same time.
A 4+1 has 4 simultaneous axii, and a fifth axis that can only position.
A 3+2 has 3 simultaneous axii, XYZ, and two rotary axii that can only position(index if you will)
A 4+1 has 4 simultaneous axii, and a fifth axis that can only position.
A 3+2 has 3 simultaneous axii, XYZ, and two rotary axii that can only position(index if you will)
precisionmetal
Stainless
- Joined
- May 16, 2005
- Location
- CA
"Usually", I believe any time you see a "+" in there, the number after the plus is/are the axis that are being used as positioners (vs. simultaneous movement during machining).
e.g. 3+1 would typically mean simultaneous 3-axis movement with the 4th axis (probably an A axis in most cases) being used only as a positioner. 3+2 would mean the same except that it could be an A and C (or B and C) being used as a positioner. I suppose theoretically, it could even be an A and a B being used as positioners. If you look at something like a CNC mill made specifically for machining engine cylinder heads, you see some of what I would call "non-standard" configurations.
4+1? Well... not a term I hear much, though there would be a lot of possibilities depending on which axis is static during cutting.
Highest end machine are of course capable (not only geometrically and mechanically, but controller-wise as well) of simultaneously moving all 5 axis.
Thanks my take.
PM
e.g. 3+1 would typically mean simultaneous 3-axis movement with the 4th axis (probably an A axis in most cases) being used only as a positioner. 3+2 would mean the same except that it could be an A and C (or B and C) being used as a positioner. I suppose theoretically, it could even be an A and a B being used as positioners. If you look at something like a CNC mill made specifically for machining engine cylinder heads, you see some of what I would call "non-standard" configurations.
4+1? Well... not a term I hear much, though there would be a lot of possibilities depending on which axis is static during cutting.
Highest end machine are of course capable (not only geometrically and mechanically, but controller-wise as well) of simultaneously moving all 5 axis.
Thanks my take.
PM
LockNut
Stainless
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2007
- Location
- Bergen County
From a Fanuc perspective, because that is what I mostly use in less than a full five axis capacity, Fanuc specifies number of "simultaneously controlled axis". Meaning ANY 3 or 4 axis at the same time, the other one or two are static. Believe it or not, most CAM systems make this more difficult because you cannot directly tell your CAM system which axis you want in motion at any given time. I have programmed 4+1, having A Axis stationary and moving X,Y,Z, and C at the same time. If you are a good manual programmer and have whiz bang trig skills, I suppose you could make anything work. But, usually, the number before the plus sign are the number of simultaneously controlled axis', which are ANY of the axis'.
Paul
Paul
awander
Stainless
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2012
- Location
- Eastern PA
Guys, the plural of axis is "axes"...
706jim
Titanium
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2006
- Location
- Thunder Bay Canada
And as the number of controlled axes increases, the work envelope shrinks. A Haas VF2 has 30" x 16" travel in X and Y. Now add the TR160 trunnion and rotary table and the size of part you can realistically machine is limited to approximately the size of a grapefruit when using full simultaneous 5 axis motion.
5 axis Fidia guy
Stainless
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2006
- Location
- Wisconsin
This is especially true with a head-head configuration, as compared to a head table.
LockNut
Stainless
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2007
- Location
- Bergen County
Well, by golly, slap my wrist. I'm just an applications engineer, not an English major.
Paul
That's not event he real interesting question, the real interesting question is "How many different variations of full 5 axis are there?) Like 2 on the table 3 in the Column, or 2 on the Table-2 Auxillary/Ancillary-1 in the Column, or Like Deckel 4 on the Table and 1 in the Column?
It seems like I have seen a Deckel with 4 on the Knee and also 3 above the Table on the same Machine, could be wrong though.
Or start asking about all the Axes on Mill/Turn Machines, and why the hell they are called what they are (9 Axe) Psshht. Or some Swiss guys say theirs are 12-13 Axe.
R
It seems like I have seen a Deckel with 4 on the Knee and also 3 above the Table on the same Machine, could be wrong though.
Or start asking about all the Axes on Mill/Turn Machines, and why the hell they are called what they are (9 Axe) Psshht. Or some Swiss guys say theirs are 12-13 Axe.
R
Ox
Diamond
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2002
- Location
- Northwest Ohio
Boy - I have some axes to grind with that statement....
Mr. Cave Creek - any chance you have heard of "Frey Hill"?
-----------------
Think Snow Eh!
Ox
Bobw
Diamond
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2005
- Location
- Hatch, NM Chile capital of the WORLD
Now we are totally screwed.. I was moving the X axis, and now I'm moving multiple Axes, but now that
I only want to move the X again... My machine disappeared and all I've got left is an Axe.
As for the original question.. I've never had the opportunity to play with a 5 axis machine, only
4.. But, even with only 4, its VERY seldom that you need to move all 4 axis at once. In over 15
years, I've only ever had to move all 4 at once.. ONCE, and I didn't even really need to do that,
It could easily have been done with 3 moving at once, and the X stationary.
I'm sure most machines deal with multi axis movement much better than a mid 90's Fadal, but I was
running a G19 YZ-X helix while moving the 4th.. It was a G19 G3 Y..Z..J..K..X..A.. move.. Holy SLOW!!
couldn't program over 7.5ipm without tossing an error.. Not sure what the A was moving, but it wasn't
moving anywhere near its max speed. I enjoyed that particular part, it was a "feather in the cap" type
of job.
bryan_machine
Diamond
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2006
- Location
- Near Seattle
But wait, there's more....
Sometimes machines have axes, cnc controlled, which not only can't be moved simultaneous with the others, but only stop at certain places. Think of a horizontal boring machine with a table that can only index to 90° or every 15°. (Not sure how many of these were made CNC.)
Sometimes machines have axes, cnc controlled, which not only can't be moved simultaneous with the others, but only stop at certain places. Think of a horizontal boring machine with a table that can only index to 90° or every 15°. (Not sure how many of these were made CNC.)
TRussell
Aluminum
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2015
Depends on what you need to do, I'm making a 737 slat rib in a VF2-TR right now. It's about 4x6x8. After that I'm making 737 fairing supports out of a 15x15x2 block. If you only need to cut a very small angle, you can fit a pretty big part in. I checked the fairing support program, and it will get an overtravel alarm with a .625 cutter, and run with a.5.
TeachMePlease
Diamond
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2014
- Location
- FL
Well, when you've got gang one with X,Y,Z,C, and then a second gang with independent X, Y, Z, and then a programmable B axis on gang 2, and a sub with independent X,Z,C, and sometimes Y, yeah, you can get up to 12+ axes with no issue. Even a cheap Swiss usually has X,Y,Z,C 1 and X,Z,C 2.
Ox
Diamond
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2002
- Location
- Northwest Ohio
But those 12 are not normally interpolating together as they are on different paths, and likely different processors.
I doubt that "synch" is as equal to being ran on the same processor.
"Slave" may be pretty close - if it is an option. I think it is in some cases.
I know that I have tried to use it that way - but was not able to on mine.
Example - Z2 slaved to Z1 for the porpoise of opening holes in a tube in C/Z on both sides of the part at the same time.
-----------------------------
Think Snow Eh!
Ox
I doubt that "synch" is as equal to being ran on the same processor.
"Slave" may be pretty close - if it is an option. I think it is in some cases.
I know that I have tried to use it that way - but was not able to on mine.
Example - Z2 slaved to Z1 for the porpoise of opening holes in a tube in C/Z on both sides of the part at the same time.
-----------------------------
Think Snow Eh!
Ox
Really I'm just running my mouth anyway, but they as Mr. Ox pointed out, they aren't running synonymously on the same line of code. Anyway too much happening at the same time, too much for me.
R
TeachMePlease
Diamond
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2014
- Location
- FL
Really I'm just running my mouth anyway, but they as Mr. Ox pointed out, they aren't running synonymously on the same line of code. Anyway too much happening at the same time, too much for me.
R
Don't you run an Integrex?
TeachMePlease
Diamond
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2014
- Location
- FL
Really I'm just running my mouth anyway, but they as Mr. Ox pointed out, they aren't running synonymously on the same line of code. Anyway too much happening at the same time, too much for me.
R
Maybe not running on the same line of code, but running on the same controller (Mits) simultaneously.
Citizen Langdrehmaschine "Cincom D25" - YouTube
Don't you run an Integrex?
Mazak? Not if I can help it, too many weird expectations. Okuma Multus (same layout-B axis Turning center). I have run Integrex', Macturn, NTX and NZ machines in the past, I actually am very versed in all the Axis definitions and why they are what they are. I just think it's silly to a point, and really, I was just antagonizing a topic.
as usual.R
