Benefits of using 5-axis CNC Machining

NGrimberg · Apr 25, 2018

The Machining world is growing at an unbelievable pace. Handheld machines have advanced to highly sophisticated computerized machines (CNC). Similarly, basic 2,3-axis CNC machines have now led on to a more improved, more liked 5-axis CNC machines.

Some benefits of 5-axis CNC machines are:

1. Heightened Accuracy, Efficiency & Cost Effectiveness: Sophisticated Machines
First on our list is, obviously, the points we mentioned before. There is a reason why machinists are fond of this machine type, even with complex process and all. 5-axis machining is the more efficient, accurate and improved of all its counterparts. Owing to less fixturing at multiple operations, using it directly translates to better work-piece quality and durability. This means good parts, less wastage, lower tooling costs, and shorter working duration.

2. Complicated shapes, angles made possible.
With its ability to reach even the most complicated of angles, five-axis machines serve as a savior to all those looking for more complex 4D and 5D parts. Something we would never be able to achieve with your regular 2 axis, 3 axis machines. That too in a single setup, all thanks to its structure which makes it possible to reach out to both sides at one-sitting. All these things translate to better productivity and improved work-piece quality.

Guys, share some other benefits of 5-axis machining.

DMF_TomB · Apr 25, 2018

majority of times fixture on a rotary table indexes or a machine with a spindle head (like 90 degree head) rotates to a certain index. i often have problems with heavy roughing cause table than can adjust to .001 degree cannot hold position. many indexing devices have teeth for indexing to nearest 360 degree setting and hold position much stronger.
.
center of index error, table leaning so center of index changes the higher you are above the table. part warpage when clamp bolts loosened. all machines have backlash even if in small amounts
.
sure there are advantages but it comes with additional complex problems
.
there are some who say part warpage in not all immediate. sometimes a unclamped part needs time to think about it before warping fully to a relaxed shape. even in a 4 or 5 axis machine not only does rechucking need time but gravity and part weight can cause complex warpage just from a parts weight and how its held. often its complex or has many problems and not as easy as many think doing multi axis machining.
.
and of course all tool holders if held horizontally sag from gravity. long tool holders can sag over .001" easily. just saying it can be complex not as easy as some think. then there is temperature effects a complex thing in itself trying to compensate for especially in 4 or 5 axis

Booze Daily · Apr 25, 2018

Five axis milling has its place but it's not the be-all end-all that you seem to think it is.
WTF is 4D and 5D?

Larry Dickman · Apr 25, 2018

Scheiße, where do you start?

DMF_TomB · Apr 25, 2018

many machines do not machine while machine is indexing. some rotary tables with teeth actually go up so teeth out of mesh then it rotates and drops back down so teeth in mesh. 3+2 machining maybe they call it. far stronger holding ability
.
i have often had rotary table move .001 degree and cnc stop with error alarm

2outof3 · Apr 25, 2018

DMF_TomB said:
majority of times fixture on a rotary table indexes or a machine with a spindle head (like 90 degree head) rotates to a certain index. i often have problems with heavy roughing cause table than can adjust to .001 degree cannot hold position. many indexing devices have teeth for indexing to nearest 360 degree setting and hold position much stronger.
.
center of index error, table leaning so center of index changes the higher you are above the table. part warpage when clamp bolts loosened. all machines have backlash even if in small amounts
.
sure there are advantages but it comes with additional complex problems
.
there are some who say part warpage in not all immediate. sometimes a unclamped part needs time to think about it before warping fully to a relaxed shape. even in a 4 or 5 axis machine not only does rechucking need time but gravity and part weight can cause complex warpage just from a parts weight and how its held. often its complex or has many problems and not as easy as many think doing multi axis machining.
.
and of course all tool holders if held horizontally sag from gravity. long tool holders can sag over .001" easily. just saying it can be complex not as easy as some think. then there is temperature effects a complex thing in itself trying to compensate for especially in 4 or 5 axis

Well thought out response. No such thing as magic. It certainly has its place but comes with a heavy investment and steep learning curve.

DMF_TomB · Apr 25, 2018

2outof3 said:
Well thought out response. No such thing as magic. It certainly has its place but comes with a heavy investment and steep learning curve.

.
i often recut surfaces .0005" off and most is from part warpage. it is not easy, complex machining comes with complex problems.

implmex · Apr 26, 2018

Hi All:
I think DMF_TomB summed it very well with this remark:
" complex machining comes with complex problems."

I watched the guy I share shop space with as he finally satisfied his 5 axis machine lust in Feb of 2015 and it was an epic.
6 totally unproductive months while he prepared for the machine to arrive, sorting out posts and tools and holders and workholding and pouring a foundation and etc etc.

A month of total chaos to get the machine in and on its foundation and wired and leveled and checked out.

A year of screwing around and tech visits and Axiset software and more tech visits and machine stripdown and shimming and more screwing around to solve accuracy issues.

Finally the machine was in and performing adequately; now comes the reality of running it:
Every job no matter how simple is preceded by planning, and planning, and more planning.
There's holding issues and clearance issues and access issues; it's an order of magnitude more complicated than 3 or 4 axis milling.
Software to run it is not ten thousand dollars, it's 30 thousand dollars if you want to take proper advantage of what it can do.

The machine itself is all those versatile things that were promised; it's also floppier than a 3 axis machine and the penalty is in lower ability to rough and poorer geometry when you get down to tenths or look at the finish under a microscope.
It is also harder on cutters.

Now, lest you think Keith is an incompetent hack, I can assure you he's one of the best, most quality conscious machinists I know.
He does beautiful work to a very high standard, and it was STILL a big challenge to get this complex new capability to work as smoothly as it does now..

So I agree with the posters who are cynical about the uncritical boosterism for 5 axis magic I hear so much of these days.
Sure it's a great new tool, but it's not easy to run without courting disaster...there's a lot to learn, a lot to know, and a whole new level of ongoing vigilance required to make good parts and avoid crashing the toy.
You surely don't just clamp your block in the vise and go to town.
If you're not very disciplined, very focused and hyper-vigilant, you'll make the machine go BOOM sooner or later and it's probably pretty ugly when it happens.

So all you guys out there who are running 5 axis mills successfully...I applaud you!
For every hundred good 3 axis VMC machinists out there there's probably only one of you.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

doug925 · Apr 26, 2018

implmex said:
So I agree with the posters who are cynical about the uncritical boosterism for 5 axis magic I hear so much of these days.
Sure it's a great new tool, but it's not easy to run without courting disaster...there's a lot to learn, a lot to know, and a whole new level of ongoing vigilance required to make good parts and avoid crashing the toy.
You surely don't just clamp your block in the vise and go to town.
If you're not very disciplined, very focused and hyper-vigilant, you'll make the machine go BOOM sooner or later and it's probably pretty ugly when it happens.

This is why I keep vacillating on my intent to get into 5th axis machines!

2outof3 · Apr 26, 2018

DMF_TomB said:
.
i often recut surfaces .0005" off and most is from part warpage. it is not easy, complex machining comes with complex problems.

The customer who taught me the most about 5 axis, almost always roughs, sets the parts aside and then finishes after a couple days of part relaxation. Some parts take three rounds on the machines.

DMF_TomB · Apr 26, 2018

part warpage still occurs with 4 and 5 axis machines. sure you can rechuck lighter and lighter torque but often warpage needs time to occur. not everything is instant.
.
grid shift, center of index, backlash (calibration and compensation) can be complex.
.
take for example if spindle is out of tram or leaning then the longer the tool, the more the tool tip shifts position. often you can indicate a bored hole and measure not centered on hole a just bored hole and it can vary depending how long the indicator setup is sticking out of the spindle.
.
temperature changes can cause dimensions of part, fixture, machine, tooling to all be changing often not at the same rates. even with coolant temperature control coolant evaporation has a chilling effect.
.
just saying 5 axis aint magic or fool proof. a lot can go wrong and often feel like a dog chasing its tail going round and round

DMF_TomB · Apr 26, 2018

2outof3 said:
The customer who taught me the most about 5 axis, almost always roughs, sets the parts aside and then finishes after a couple days of part relaxation. Some parts take three rounds on the machines.

.
sure 3 or 4 separate ops in separate fixtures and part can still warp. i see that everyday

otrlt · Apr 26, 2018

The main reason why 5 axis machines exist today is because of the shortage of skilled machinist that are able to locate work pieces correctly.

DMF_TomB · Apr 26, 2018

doug925 said:
This is why I keep vacillating on my intent to get into 5th axis machines!

.
crashes are rare on 5 axis machines cause software checks tool paths.
.
worse problem i ever saw was 11 ton casting was big in one spot sticking out a extra 0.5", facemill could not handle it. so often safer to watch all the roughing to make sure the part you got is the size you think it is. and no a complex part with hundreds of features sticking out all over the place cannot be checked with a tape measure. complex shapes often impossible to easily measure.

DMF_TomB · Apr 26, 2018

otrlt said:
The main reason why 5 axis machines exist today is because of the shortage of skilled machinist that are able to locate work pieces correctly.

there no question if you got a fixture that allows you to reach 4, 5 or even 6 sides it can save time. part location can be complex with complex parts. shimming a heavy part to .0001 or .0002" can be time consuming. not unusual to take longer setting a part up than the machining takes.

5 axis Fidia guy · Apr 26, 2018

otrlt said:
The main reason why 5 axis machines exist today is because of the shortage of skilled machinist that are able to locate work pieces correctly.

LOL, so let me guess. Your shop does not have any 5 axis machines.

lowCountryCamo · Apr 26, 2018

DMF_TomB said:
.
crashes are rare on 5 axis machines cause software checks tool paths.
.
worse problem i ever saw was 11 ton casting was big in one spot sticking out a extra 0.5", facemill could not handle it. so often safer to watch all the roughing to make sure the part you got is the size you think it is. and no a complex part with hundreds of features sticking out all over the place cannot be checked with a tape measure. complex shapes often impossible to easily measure.

Not all software checks are full proof. In mastercam you can get a perfect looking toolpath and then post and it is not what you thought. Vericut is a big help but takes more time to run. We have more 5x than 4 and 3. However we are aerospace and those young engineers love to create 5x type parts. I always ask, how did they make planes 20 years ago when 5x was not that common?

Making a part is one op does have its rewards though.

mhajicek · Apr 26, 2018

IMHO you'd have to be crazy to run 5ax without Vericut or equivalent. For us the reason for 5ax is medical parts with holes coming in from all directions. While it would technically be possible to do on a 3ax with a setup per hole, that would make for 20 or so operations per part with a fixture for each. And the holes move with every revision.

otrlt · Apr 26, 2018

NGrimberg said:
The Machining world is growing at an unbelievable pace. Handheld machines have advanced to highly sophisticated computerized machines (CNC). Similarly, basic 2,3-axis CNC machines have now led on to a more improved, more liked 5-axis CNC machines.

Some benefits of 5-axis CNC machines are:

1. Heightened Accuracy, Efficiency & Cost Effectiveness: Sophisticated Machines

Do you sell 5 axis machines? Your statement proves that you are a salesman. 5 Axis machinetools, in theory, are wonderful, but they are not practical for most shops. Their price tag is cost prohibitive and their ruggedness is definitely questionable.

As far as accuracy? it is doubtful that they can hold sub-tenth repeat-ability as compared to Matsuuras and Kitamuura non palatalized machining centers.

Rstewart · Apr 26, 2018

Some of these statements are comedy gold!
I've had a metric shit ton of parts that could greatly benefit from just a 3+2 machine. More and more engineers are designing "5 axis type" parts. Get with the times or get left behind; esp if your doing aero work

Benefits of using 5-axis CNC Machining

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