Best WNMG Steel ISO P turning inserts

msayani2 · Oct 4, 2016

I was looking a some steel turning inserts for EN19 and EN8 (16 - 28HrC) Steel and would like know which are the best in the business.

I had been asked to select 2 of the best ones that work well and have the best tool life.(FYI - There are times where the parts have few spot welds too.)

Brands/grades that I am considering (have decent support for all, especially considering that you dont need much for basic WNMG/CNMG inserts):

Sumitomo AC820P / AC8025P
Tungaloy T9125
Sandvik 4325
SECO TP2501
Kyocera CA525
Korloy NC3225
Walter WPP20S (Costly compared to others by approx 30-40%)
Mitsubishi (dunno which grade is right)

Any help or guidance is highly appreciated! Just wanted some feedback from the experienced machinists who have tried many grades of WNMG/CNMG inserts for gen purpose turning

Jashley73 · Oct 4, 2016

Full disclosure - I work for Seco, so I'm obviously going to be biased towards our products. But, of all the inserts that you've listed, plus some more, I would not hesitate to say that our inserts would out perform all of them...I know that's a bold statement from a sales guy, but I hand-on-heart mean it. The success of our latest TP-X501 Duratomic grades has been excellent. I have a customer now that has great success with them even in dry-turning of 41xx series steels.

The closest competitor to our products will be the Walter Tiger-Tec Silver series inserts. Credit where it's due, they're good performing tools, and Walter is probably the closest to us in coating technology out of everyone in the industry. Even still, I would still rank our carbide as the best in the industry for steel turning right now.

I'm not sure what you mean by "spot welds" and what that actually looks like on your parts. Does it mean that there will be porosity/irregularity in the welds, that will result in an interrupted cut? Does it mean that you'll have to turn-down/even the reinforcement/built-up weld material? Will the weld material be harder or softer than the base metal? Lots of possibilites here - perhaps you could shine some more light on that...

About our grades however, there's quite a bit of overlap between the TP2501, 1501 & 0501. (Tougher to wear-resistant...) So I wouldn't hesitate to move up towards the TP1501 to start off, and even go into the TP0501 grade for the best tool life, even in a light-interrupted cut. (Check out the speed & feeds in the video below...)

Duratomic: Interrupted Cuts - YouTube

I hope this is helpful... Let me know if you have any more questions...

Mechanola · Oct 4, 2016

Walter Tiger straight away.

ManualEd · Oct 4, 2016

msayani2 said:
I was looking a some steel turning inserts for EN19 and EN8 (16 - 28HrC) Steel and would like know which are the best in the business.

I had been asked to select 2 of the best ones that work well and have the best tool life.(FYI - There are times where the parts have few spot welds too.)

Brands/grades that I am considering (have decent support for all, especially considering that you dont need much for basic WNMG/CNMG inserts):

Sumitomo AC820P / AC8025P
Tungaloy T9125
Sandvik 4325
SECO TP2501
Kyocera CA525
Korloy NC3225
Walter WPP20S (Costly compared to others by approx 30-40%)
Mitsubishi (dunno which grade is right)

Any help or guidance is highly appreciated! Just wanted some feedback from the experienced machinists who have tried many grades of WNMG/CNMG inserts for gen purpose turning

If the part hasn't been properly preheated and post heated, I don't think any inserts are going to give predictable, or even good tool life.
Trying to run 600SFM through a ¼"long section of 58rc+ steel will toast just about any carbide insert.

alphonso · Oct 4, 2016

My primary insert for steel up to Rc45 for 38 years has been Kennametal WNMG 432 KC935. chipbreakers: MG, MG-MP, MG-RN, MG-RP. I think they have finally quit making that grade. I have yet to find another Kennametal grade that holds up as well as the KC935.

Casting about for something that works as well, I have found some Sumtomo AC820P and AC2000 that come pretty close. Korloy (don't remember grade) and ZCC-CT YBC252 pretty good, too. Had one old insert by Mitsubishi that was really good, but that grade has been superseded and the replacemant is not worth a damn.

Got a SECO sample and it didn't last thru 2 inches.

Iscar doesn't even come close. Trying some Tungaloy and Kyocera on stainless, jury is still out.

For whatever reason, I have never tried any Sandvik. One of my customers uses Sandvik for cast iron and I use Kennametal KC 9325 for the same parts. He agrees with me that the Kennametal lasts longer.

SeymourDumore · Oct 4, 2016

Doubt that most of us here have tested everything available on the planet, the answers will be nothing more than this is what I use
and this is what I'll never use.

For me, if it's steel, then it's Mitsubishi UE6110.

There, that's what I use.

Ukraine Train · Oct 4, 2016

My experience is limited compared to a lot of people here but I've had good luck with Tungaloy. In addition to the grades you need to be looking at chip breaker geometry also. Even for my small shop I've had sales engineers come out and spend an hour or two and burn through a bunch of different options before settling on one; take advantage of that.

I do still have my free Seco Duratomic sample to try out.

adama · Oct 5, 2016

I like Koroly, they work well for me especially there HA chip breaker in soft gummy steels at low speeds leaves a good finish. Might not have as long a life as some of the others, but there cheap enough so who cares?

IME you have to try a few your self, everyone’s applications is different, what may give me and my machine great results is a totally different ball game for you, Inserts are a bit like condoms, theres no ideal for everyone and the universal ones are a compromise for everyone!

NAST555 · Oct 5, 2016

I have used Mitsubishi,Sandvik,Iscar (a lot of Iscar actually, Walter and a few others. For the EN8 If I were using Iscar it would be IC908 with probably a TF chipbreaker, for the EN19 probably IC907 with either a GN or TF chip breaker. Walter i'd use WPP05S-MP5 for both (yeah it's pricey but it kicks butt).

EN8 is a DREAM to machine, great chip control,great finish and it will leave you believing that you are a machining genius. EN19 on the other hand can be a pain in the butt especially when it comes to chip control. Nice finishes but damn those stringy chips are unpredictable at times.

I agree with adama about getting a few testers from the agents and getting whoever does the machining to try them out BUT there is a reason why I have these nice stickers on most of my machines...

james siffel · Oct 6, 2016

I have to second Jashley73, and I am not a Seco employee. But hey, where's some complimentary inserts for my man?!

Jashley73 · Oct 6, 2016

james siffel said:
I have to second Jashley73, and I am not a Seco employee. But hey, where's some complimentary inserts for my man?!

Whactchyoo wanna try...?

Krovvax · Oct 6, 2016

I have used seco and walter in a long roughing cut (from 15 inch dia to 6.5 inch for 10 inch long) in hrs 1045 at 950 sfm .125 doc 0.015 ipt.

Was getting 45 minute out of each corner of the seco tp1501.

Got similar grade out of my walter rep because i told him how good these new insert are and they wanted to challenge them. At the same spped/feed each corner of the walter one last 25 min. Its about half the tool life.

So my go to for steel now is seco for sure.

Envoyé de mon SM-G920W8 en utilisant Tapatalk

CarbideBob · Oct 6, 2016

You say you have decent support for all.
You are going to have to do some testing with freebies on your parts and your machines.
Every op and group of machines are different. Common to see Seco at the best for 2 years, followed by Sumitomo for the next few years, then Mitsubishi, then a Seco again.....
With only 40 years in the field I can't pick the best two out of your list.
Service, tech help, and a wiliness to obsolete your own grade on a job and thereby decrease you own sales work best for the customer.
The big places expect a cost reduction every year. You can't reduce manufacturing cost so you have to come up with a better tool.

Once the job is running will this "decent support" you have keep looking for better or be happy selling what is on now?
Read between the lines a bit on support, will they be chomping at the bit to come back and test new stuff against their own tools?
This is slitting your own throat for a commission cutting tool sales person but the way it works to fend off others.

Get free tools where you can. Run tests on your machines and programs.
Abuse your tool supply reps and their tech support and don't feel bad doing so.

msayani2 · Oct 8, 2016

Thanks for all the replies. I have taken samples from SECO, Tungaloy, Sumitomo and Sandvik and on initial testing Seco and Sumitomo have double the life of the others.
doc of doc of 0.
Gotta try out NC3225 grade of Korloy and Walter.

Cutting Parameters : 450SFM, 0.01 in/rev and 0.1" doc for all tests as this is for manual lathes.

Will be running more tests at the same parameters but at 600sfm to be sure.

Anyways, thanks for all the input and if anyone else has any experience please chime in. Only 30% of our jobs max have some welding on it, however, once the weld hard layer is gone, you can easily machine like normal alloy steel, I believe as the hard layer is gone. Thus, I am concentrating on finding the best steel insert to run at between 500-700 sfm.

msayani2 · Feb 23, 2017

Has anyone got feedback on the Sandvik 4325 or 4315 series inserts? How is their performance compared to others?

I was wondering if we should go for SECO, walter or sumitomo or the SANDVIK. Anyone with prior experience, do chime in.

Thanks for the help.

Jason Radner · Mar 1, 2017

I sell Seco mixed with many other brands. I hate to say it but I have had more luck with Tungaloy DM chipbreaker and grade T9125 for interruptions. Seco is awesome but can fracture quite easily, even in a TP2501 or TP3500. You almost need to go all the way back to TP400 to get there and give up the speed.

dodgin · Mar 1, 2017

Jashley73 said:
Full disclosure - I work for Seco, so I'm obviously going to be biased towards our products. But, of all the inserts that you've listed, plus some more, I would not hesitate to say that our inserts would out perform all of them...I know that's a bold statement from a sales guy, but I hand-on-heart mean it. The success of our latest TP-X501 Duratomic grades has been excellent. I have a customer now that has great success with them even in dry-turning of 41xx series steels.

The closest competitor to our products will be the Walter Tiger-Tec Silver series inserts. Credit where it's due, they're good performing tools, and Walter is probably the closest to us in coating technology out of everyone in the industry. Even still, I would still rank our carbide as the best in the industry for steel turning right now.

I'm not sure what you mean by "spot welds" and what that actually looks like on your parts. Does it mean that there will be porosity/irregularity in the welds, that will result in an interrupted cut? Does it mean that you'll have to turn-down/even the reinforcement/built-up weld material? Will the weld material be harder or softer than the base metal? Lots of possibilites here - perhaps you could shine some more light on that...

About our grades however, there's quite a bit of overlap between the TP2501, 1501 & 0501. (Tougher to wear-resistant...) So I wouldn't hesitate to move up towards the TP1501 to start off, and even go into the TP0501 grade for the best tool life, even in a light-interrupted cut. (Check out the speed & feeds in the video below...)

Duratomic: Interrupted Cuts - YouTube

I hope this is helpful... Let me know if you have any more questions...

Don't let me derail the thread but do you have any inserts you'd hand-on-heart swear by for turning fiberglass?

Shop Supply Guru · Mar 1, 2017

PCD is a good start but I've got 5x tool life in highly abrasive (glass & copper filled) plastics from Horn CVD-D Ultra-Hard Cutting Materials >> Horn USA, Inc. - EXCELLENCE IN TECHNOLOGY

Jashley73 · Mar 1, 2017

dodgin said:
Don't let me derail the thread but do you have any inserts you'd hand-on-heart swear by for turning fiberglass?

Whoa, that's a new one on me... What are we talking about here - just a run of the mill, glass mat, with polyurethane resin fiberglass?

I'm totally spit-balling, but if there's not much/any carbon or other nasty abrasive fillers, then I'd probably suggest trying a high-shear insert, that would actually "cut" the fibers, rather than just crush them. We make some that are similar to aluminum chip-breakers with an ultra-hard PVD coating that might do ok, but again, I won't even pretend to have experience with that material. That suggestion could be a total flop - I don't know...? :confused:

What have you had the best luck with?

deadlykitten · Mar 2, 2017

msayani2 said:
Kyocera CA525

CA510, etc 500series

works prety well in normal steel : lot of material / edge, changing edge maybe one / shift

( depends on setup )

Jashley73 said:
The closest competitor to our products will be the Walter Tiger-Tec Silver series inserts

nasty material cutted at oxy : here Kyocera failed, but Walter Tiger did the job

Best WNMG Steel ISO P turning inserts

Plastic

Titanium

Stainless

Stainless

Titanium

Diamond

Cast Iron

Diamond

Stainless

Attachments

Cast Iron

Titanium

Hot Rolled

Diamond

Plastic

Plastic

Aluminum

Hot Rolled

Hot Rolled

Titanium

Banned

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