Inexpensive Face Mills?

Mitty,
I do know what you mean and have looked at several myself, then look at the job at hand and decide there is not enough in the job to warrant the expense.

I like the idea of the facing tools Travers has. Several of them offer high versatilty with light cutting forces. I like they have several diameter heads to be interchangable with the shell mill holders. That is what I want. However I have been burnt by the lack of quality tooling they provide and stay clear from making that kind of purchase again. I'd rather stay with roughing pass and fly cutter to finish for now.

#1 choices
4-6" diameter
Interchangeable shell mill head for different dia and leads
I like the sheering action of APKT inserts
I love the cost of TPU 322 inserts, but pocketing in anything other then 90deg can be a problem

I have a 3" face mill and 1" insert cutters that share inserts. For me that was a big selling point.

This weekend I was thinking that we need to get Frank Mari to make insert mills with the integral shank like the one below. I have one of these and it sure is a good tool. Frank seems like he would be in a good position to make these.

TPG-32x and SPG-42x are probably the cheapest choices for inserts.
TPUs are turning inserts. They have a small negative land at the cutting edge and rough edges. Up sharp TPGs will give more life in a milling cutter making them more economical to use.

Just my 2 cents worth, Bob

Iscar F45E.

Light cutting forces. Uses SEKR inserts. I get great finishes in both aluminum and carbon/alloy steels using Iscar SEKR42AFN-76 IC328 inserts and they're only $4.00 each.

Iscar charges $400-800 for cutters 3-8" in diameter.

I also hate stocking so many different types of inserts. I would like an insert style that is available from many different manufacturers and grades. Like a WNMG insert in the turning arena.

Hi Frank I'm with you
"There must be a need besides just me as I'm looking for a 6" diameter spinner, a big honkin cutter fo cheap"
I'm running a 6" face mill on my KRV 2000 it came of ebay square tip it started out has a 50 our 60 iso. I turned the arbor down to 30 iso to suit my machine it works a treat, can't imagine this being in the catalogue
Kevin

Holy Smokes Keebo - Elvis would call that a big hunka - hunka metal lovin chunka Face Mill. That baby is big or looks it. Must have lots of inertia, thats a lot of metal.

A lot of you have expressed the same sentiments. There are so many inserts that your head spins just figuring out what is what. Everytime the Seco salesman or ISCAR salesman comes to visit they suck you in to their grand plan to buy the latest greatest insert that will save you .00125 cents per piece on increased production and man-o-man that sounds great and they will "GIVE" you the cutter body which uses proprietary inserts and may have limited applications (Not everyone cuts TI or Inconel or Hastaloy) and costs 43.95 per insert. Then after they leave with your money, it dawns on you that the cutter only has a limited scope of application. Then what? Your back to cranking passes on your el cheapo Enco 3 insert 2" Face Mill - WTF!

I need a simple Face Mill, a nice wheel that can use the cheap common inserts that I don't have to mortgage the shop for, and no I don't want a free Lista Cabinet with my $140,000.00 worth of inserts that I have to buy to cover all the applications. Thats baloney.

I need some nice simple wheels, maybe interchangable, could be with pads or shims to allow a range of inserts to cut Aluminum, Cast Iron, or Steel and change geometry a bit.

The carbide makers want to specialize the cutters, when we are in a crunch to spend the dollars wisely. I don't have the room or money for every little trinket that comes along. There has to be commonality and I recall that being a theme in one of the magazines not that long ago. I don't do Automotive work for the big 2 1/2, and I don't do NASA work and I'm not interested in being written up in some magazine as a posterboy for conspicious consumption.

I'm a little guy making stuff in the US of A, I need help staying competitive and thats not wasting my tooling money and cutter money. Probably a damn good reason I bought a S*&t load of startup tooling from Bro. Frank Mari who makes fine toys for us big Boys.

I just need a flexible, multi-use cutter. Hell, I'd like to see Bro. Frank expand his current line of stuff into solid body insert cutters in a range of sizes. I think that if all Frank did was make the finest Holders and cutters on this green earth, his legacy would run beyond his years. At least he listens.

So far it seems like the SEKR Series, TPG-32x and SPG-42x Series, and APKT inserts Series have the possibilities. Definately have to be inserts that are "Standards" not Specialty inserts.

Now all we have to do is get Frank Mari back to work. I looked in my Wooden toolmakers chest and I have so many inserts I forgot what I bought them for. Don't bother sending me hate mail that I want to abolish insert cut-off tools. No, I understand that some apps have to have special stuff - we just need to draw a line somewhere.

I look at this stuff simply. I call my metal salesman and I say "Raj, nice price on the Alum. but there was a range from 2.16 to 2.45 per lb. We can't have that. Nope, you Raj. need to price our stuff based on us using Ten tons of Aluminum per year and resend the quote. I'm watching ya."

I refuse to waste money and risk not working. I should post a sign in the shop "If you are here to waste my money or time please leave and close the door behind you - this space costs money to heat and cool"

I am one shop owner that will take a stand and not get pushed around this year and I know I'm not the only one.

Frank in Tennessee

There's six pages of face mills on eBay right now including many new 6".

APxx are quite popular and come in many grades, types, and radii. Decently priced too.

Just saw a post from exkenna...he is offering the APKT look-a-like in smaller sizes that are interchangable with standard stuff - Any face mills in there?. He said they are made by Bison, and has a good selection of sizes, grades and applications for the inserts. Seems like Frank is overworked on all of these pet projects, maybe he needs a bit of breather room to make sure he does what he does best....good service.

Exkenna, you out there?

Mitty, this one has your name written all over it!


http://cgi.ebay.com/Sandvik-CoroMil...ageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m118

Well if you can make do with a 4" diameter I just got 6 of these in for a one time promo. 4" tool and 10 inserts for $350.
These mow aluminum like nothing I've ever seen and they work well on low horsepower machines because they're so free cutting. Lot's of guys on the board have these now and nothing but rave reviews. Max your RPM and .008-.012 per tooth feed rate.

Thanks Joe, you gonna buy it for me! Thats exactly what I was talking about. $869.50 BIN price and then stuff it full of specialty inserts. Well I sure wouldn't pay 1700 for it either. Who's side they on? Not mine. I could eat well for a month for that, two or three months for the full price and maybe even buy some good imported German beer. Hell I could make a good machine payment.

Your making my point, I need something good but economical - truly economic considering cost of inserts and all.

Frank in Tennessee

Maybe if you defined economical for us.....

"I could eat well for a month for that, two or three months for the full price and maybe even buy some good imported German beer"

Just ask any woman....If you buy the $1700 face mill for $850 you could eat even better for the next month with the $850 you just saved!!! Simple math!

That facemill looks like an Ingersol, I used one of those but the endmill style, 1.25" three inserts coolant thru. It was truly an awsome tool, .75 doc, .75 woc, 12000rpm, 400IPM had it run over 600IPM in some cuts. Talk about removing some aluminum, man that was fun.

Coupons? and Coupon Thinking

Glenn - I bet you cut out coupons! Nothing personal. It reminds me of my Grandmother who would cut out coupons and take a stack of them to the store and buy whatever just cause there was a coupon for it.

Economical is something which has a reasonable cost over the life of the device. Tooling is a durable goods - same as CNC Machines which rank near the top according to the Federal Banks (did you know that!).

If you have a high priced tool and the inserts are not reasonably priced - not economical.
If the tool is reasonably priced and the inserts are common style available from multiple sources and reasonable - Economical!
If the tool is cheap (Chinese crap) and inserts cheap - false economy

So there must be a level at which the tool (holder) delivers value without being overpriced and the inserts are common and available from many sources which keeps price down and guards against that bad word - obsolescence.

Its just like buying a CNC machine and then pouring money into it - false economy.

Of course you have to take into account the intended purpose or use. If I buy a tool for cutting TI, or Hastaloy or some other difficult metal then the cost of that tool will be in proportion to the job requirements.

Just buying a tool because there is a special or coupon on it is burning money - EXCEPT - in those rare occasions where you need it (have a job that requires it) or are replacing a tool that was also on sale that just is not cutting the mustard. To buy a tool just because you MIGHT have a need for it - is false economy and wasting money.

Spending 850 on a tool that cost 1700 is false economy and false savings. Why spend the 850 in the first place? I could get one from Exkenna Guy for less money and just as good and two buckets full of inserts - well okay at least a good handful, and still save money.

See the point? Buying cutters on Ebay just because they LOOK like a good deal is not always good especially if you can't get the inserts anymore (see obsolescence above). Ever wonder why they are being sold on Ebay? Not everything sold there is a hidden treasure.

This isn't meant to be soap box or personal - just that sometimes we get caught up in bad buying habits. Then we wonder why the shop isn't making money. In this place in time - you must watch every penny.

If you don't agree then I will give you an address where you can send your excess money. It will be less painful than throwing it out the window or burning it and I will put it to good use - I promise!

Warm Regards

Frank in Tennessee (where we don't waste anything)

P.S. We even recycle old used concrete, just break it up and put it in the new pour

Exkenna Guy - how much are the inserts for that tool?

Frank in Tennessee

Large diameter face mills never have been cheap, and never will be. There's not enough demand for them to get the production up to the point where anyone but the big carbide manufacturers is even going to fool with making them. If you doubt this, just go out and survey the first hundred VMC's you run across with 40taper spindles and count the number of 6" face mills in use. Chance are that number will be zero.

If you want to skim aluminum for surface finish and don't want to spend any money, just make yourself a 6" flycutter that'll take a toolholder with a TCGT aluminum specific insert. Won't be real fast with a single insert, but it'll be cheap if you make it yourself, and the inserts won't cost more than about $1.50 per edge.

Cheap.....fast......dependable
Choose any two

mitty,

Relax!

The "define economical" part was a reasonable question. Just curious as to what you were thinking would be a fair price. You sounded as though you wanted quality at a good price, so eBay is not a bad place to start. I just bought six face mills a couple of weeks ago. One was a brand new Valenite 2.5" that takes APxx 1604 inserts with a new Valenite 30 taper shank for $100.00 and another was a 3" new Sandvik I bought for $50.00. Both "buy it now" so no waiting. The other four wer various sizes and all use APxx 1604 inserts and were all $20.00 to $40.00. All in about an hours time. I'd classify it as "Good Economy".

Just trying to help!

The other part was a joke!

Apparently your not married!

Mitty, the inserts for that facemill run about $11.50.
Yes, I know that sounds expensive but it *is* a specialized cutter and to be honest they seem to last forever. You might get a years usage out of them.
There is also the economics of scale to consider. The inserts are not produced in the same qty's as a say CNMG so they're not as cheap. Plus they are ground on multiple surfaces. Common lathe and milling inserts are molded so they can just press them out by the thousands.
If you're just facing, an economical choice might be a SEKN/SEKR style 45 degree cutter. You can find these inserts just about anywhere for $4-5 dollars.