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Which cnc vertical with pallet changer?

Unahorn

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 20, 2012
Location
sacramento
We are looking for another cnc vertical pallet changer machine for our shop. We mainly are looking for 30+ tool machine, and most likely leaning towards a 40 taper machine.

We have brothers, love them tc-31a and a tc-s2dn. But we feel the tables are too small for our next project. We would like to stack as many parts on a table we can cram in, and get some good cycle time when we leave the shop for the day. The brother will just run out too soon with a small table. We are considering a makino ps95 with a midaco pallet changer, but just recently our repair tech, really was swaying us against it, citing problems he has seen with midaco, or any off brand pallet changer. He was highly suggesting a machine that was built with the pallet changing in mind. Which is pushing us back to a doosan, quaser, and maybe a brother tc-32bn.

Is there a machine we are missing that others have ran in production, and had great luck with, to suggest?
 
Methods has a whole line of robodrills fed by various gantries and robots. I'd be kind of stunned if brother doesn't have or at least support a similar story. Such solutions could supply parts for a long time.

However - tool magazine size is a different issue.
 
I believe a Mazak VCN530 is still offered in a two pallet machine with a 48 tool option.

We have a couple non-pallet shuttle machines that are workhorses (well, for a vertical)...and don't let the spindle HP fool you, they have plenty of oomph, most likely it is just stated correctly on the spec sheet. They do have pretty fast processing through the control, much faster than a Fanuc 18i...I walk by the Fanuc machine and think it's in feed hold or in an alarm state most of the time because it is sitting still waiting for the current command to execute, then it moves.

Steve
 
Methods has a whole line of robodrills fed by various gantries and robots. I'd be kind of stunned if brother doesn't have or at least support a similar story. Such solutions could supply parts for a long time.

However - tool magazine size is a different issue.

Pretty sure robodrill is limited to 21 tools. Brother does have an option, 40 tools with a pallet changer. But we are leaning towards a 40 taper machine with a larger table. So we can stack more part and have longer cycle times when we leave the shop at night.
 
I've worked with 3 Mori Seiki GV503 verticals. Those are older machines now, but just absolute beasts. Ours ran 12-20 hours a day for 15 years.
 
we have a Doosan... Its an okay machine, but it wouldn't be at the top of my list. not enough room under the table for chips to get to the conveyer, and cleaning is a PITA. We have had issues with the tool changer belt... machine loses the belt position and you have to go through a lengthy process in order to get it back up.

Overall its a reasonably priced machine, with a solid base and spindle package, but unless you are already a Doosan shop, Id keep looking.

Being that it hasn't been mentioned yet... How about the Chiron FZ?
 
Pretty sure robodrill is limited to 21 tools. Brother does have an option, 40 tools with a pallet changer. But we are leaning towards a 40 taper machine with a larger table. So we can stack more part and have longer cycle times when we leave the shop at night.

To me this is a two part question.

How many parts can be made during the day when the machine is tended. How many parts can be made at night unattended.

For example,

The Brother 32B may make less parts during the extended period but most likely will make more parts during the day when it can be loaded at will before the other pallet is done. If the Brother can make 5 more parts per hour and you work 10 hours attended, then any machine to be more effective would have to be able to hold an extra 50 parts more than the Brother 32Bn to equal the same production. If the Brother produces 10 parts more per hour than that number jumps to 100 more parts on the pallet than the Brother to just equal the Brothers daily out put.

If I was buying the machine and had good experience with Brother like you have had, I would layout the Brother table as full as you could and then program it. Then do the same with the other machines you are looking at. Then give the programs to the builders to test actual cycle time expected. I would be willing to run a program to see what the expected cycle time would be on the Brother.


Andy
 
To me this is a two part question.

How many parts can be made during the day when the machine is tended. How many parts can be made at night unattended.

For example,

The Brother 32B may make less parts during the extended period but most likely will make more parts during the day when it can be loaded at will before the other pallet is done. If the Brother can make 5 more parts per hour and you work 10 hours attended, then any machine to be more effective would have to be able to hold an extra 50 parts more than the Brother 32Bn to equal the same production. If the Brother produces 10 parts more per hour than that number jumps to 100 more parts on the pallet than the Brother to just equal the Brothers daily out put.

If I was buying the machine and had good experience with Brother like you have had, I would layout the Brother table as full as you could and then program it. Then do the same with the other machines you are looking at. Then give the programs to the builders to test actual cycle time expected. I would be willing to run a program to see what the expected cycle time would be on the Brother.


Andy

I agree with what you are saying. Us having our own product line, is not always about getting every last second out of a part, rather than managing each of our products, keeping them available for sale on the website. So we do not necessarily want to get 1000 parts done, just so they can sit on the shelf to wait to be sold. My thinking was with the quaser having a large palletable table of 40"x24". Looks like we can stack about 300% more parts on the table versus the brother. This would allow me to run multiple variations of parts. Specifically about 3 different parts per pallet going through 2-3 ops each at 10 or so qty each per cycle, giving us about 2.5 hours of cycle time each pallet.

I am still on the fence with the brother. But we will be doing a lot of material removing. And our other 40 taper machine remove material faster. The brother just kicks ass in every other aspect. Ideally we would get a milling lathe to handle the products being they are mostly starting round. But I watch videos of milling lathes. and cringe how long the parts will take do to tool change time alone. We have just ran these parts in the mills, and made custom cutters to handle what the lathes would in any fancy shaping.
 
Why not the 1000mm Brother? Right now you have 500mm x400mm of travel. The S1000 is 1000mm by 500mm, you would have a full two and a half times the table capacity.

Brother International - Machine Tools

Cheaper than a pallet changer for sure.

I would in a heart beat if they had a pallet changer and more tools. We need 24 tools just for one part alone. The other parts would reuse most of the tools, but each part will need another 1-2 tools each.
 
If you're convinced that you need a 2-pallet VMC, Okuma makes an MB series with rotating pallets. Kitamura also has their line of "spark-changer" rotating pallet machines.
 
I believe a Mazak VCN530 is still offered in a two pallet machine with a 48 tool option.

We have a couple non-pallet shuttle machines that are workhorses (well, for a vertical)...and don't let the spindle HP fool you, they have plenty of oomph, most likely it is just stated correctly on the spec sheet. They do have pretty fast processing through the control, much faster than a Fanuc 18i...I walk by the Fanuc machine and think it's in feed hold or in an alarm state most of the time because it is sitting still waiting for the current command to execute, then it moves.

Steve

I'd like to second this one. The Mazak VCN 530C TT sounds like the perfect machine for you. Cost effective, unique "twin pallet" machine that can be used as one large table if needed. Never thought anyone would have a use for it when I saw it at the shows, but it kinda sounds right for you. Check it out.

https://www.mazakusa.com/machines/vertical-center-nexus-530c-ii-tt/

E
 
Are you using a 4th axis tombstone to reduce setups currently? I've found I prefer to have parts, or the complete product (if it's multiple parts) come out of the machine every cycle. I prefer getting completed "products" each cycle as opposed to a bunch of just a single part. Would this apply to what you are doing?
 
Are you using a 4th axis tombstone to reduce setups currently? I've found I prefer to have parts, or the complete product (if it's multiple parts) come out of the machine every cycle. I prefer getting completed "products" each cycle as opposed to a bunch of just a single part. Would this apply to what you are doing?

We have a 6 horizontals if we need to do 4th axis side work. One pc15, pc5, and 4 pc2's. The jobs them selves are a front op and back op. So the horizontals will have the same amount of operations. And I also prefer to cycle jobs off complete. Kinda why I am leaning towards a bigger table to stack more jobs and cycle more parts off complete
 
My favorite VMC with a pallet changer was a MAZAK MTV 515/40. It was a heavy 40x20 machine that had a pallet changer that slid the pallet sideways out of the machine, then spun it 180 degrees. What I liked is that the load/unload point was the same every time. No going around to the other side. 30 tool magazine standard, 48 tool optional.

Not all pallet changers are created equal.
 








 
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