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  1. #1
    ARB's Avatar
    ARB
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    Default Converting Lathe to Capto

    I am thinking about converting our stick tool lathe over to Capto or Kenny KM. I may not do the whole turret but I'm thinking hard about half of it.

    Up until now most of our parts let us run with the same tool package in the machine all the time. I have always done the change overs so if something had to switched I could just handle it.

    Now I need to get the change over bit off my plate. I really want to simplify things to help cut down on possible crashes and bad parts. Not to mention set-up time.

    What pitfalls should I look for?
    Pros and cons of each system????

    Other options??

    Adam

  2. #2
    Xjenderfloip is offline Stainless
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    I cant say anything about the KM, but being a happy capto user for years, for me its the only way to go.
    If going halfway, or making a start i usually have atleast 2 or 3 outer basic holders, and 2 inner holders.
    I prefer the basic holders that are directly bolted on the turret to minimize extra overhang or losing rigidety.

    The 3 outside are for basic turning like roughing, finishing and 1 extra for grooving / threading or something else.
    If your always roughing with the same tool(like a CNMG), the No1 capto could move 1 spot( the put a normal straight shank tool in that position), and that leaves 3 more capto spots for outside work, for example finishing grooving and threading.

    Inner tools would be roughing and finishing, or roughing and finishing with the same tool, and a threading or grooving tool.
    On the inner you can also but weldon holders, of wich i always order some basic cilindric sizes along with some blancs to make any hole size in that you need along the way.

    For me this is a basic start.
    Last edited by Xjenderfloip; 11-18-2010 at 04:51 AM.

  3. #3
    gregormarwick is offline Stainless
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    Default

    Definately go with the capto. Just fitted some C6 axial blocks to one of our lathes. I am absolutely delighted with them. The improvement in rigidity is more than I could have hoped for.

    Gregor

  4. #4
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    PixMan is offline Diamond
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    Default

    The KM system is nowhere near as repeatable and rigid as Capto. I know Kennametal eventually made it an ISO standard that anyone can make, but no other companies (to my knowledge) have bothered.

    I apologize that I can't cite any specific data, but my anecdotal information is that in order of precision repeatability and rigidity for quick change tool holding systems, it's Capto 1st, HSK a strong second and KM a distant third.

    I know a few people who have made the switch to Capto, none to the others. Those people seem really pleased...once they forget how much they had to spend.

  5. #5
    Xjenderfloip is offline Stainless
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    Quote Originally Posted by PixMan View Post
    .......... Those people seem really pleased...once they forget how much they had to spend.
    Lol yes, its kinda spendy.... but it will pay back in time savings and the overall feeling of satisfaction , especially when your looking at guys tooling a turret with 10 tools, all with bolts, cooling plugs/caps, the old way.

    Not to speak of the superior internal cooling for all tools.
    No need to plum after each setup.

  6. #6
    CatMan is offline Hot Rolled
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    We have one of our lathes on a C4 system. We are slowly working on converting another older one. Like someone earlier said, those bolt on blocks are expensive ($1K+ each). But they're the only way to go to do Capto. No way would I bother with a stick to capto adapter.

    I'd advise you to keep the tools you leave in the lathe all the time setup like you have them. For us that means a large spade roughing drill and a cutoff tool stay on the stick and bushing system. Tools that get swapped out regularly get a Capto shank.

  7. #7
    ARB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatMan View Post
    No way would I bother with a stick to capto adapter.
    What are your reasons for this?

  8. #8
    gregormarwick is offline Stainless
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARB View Post
    What are your reasons for this?
    Lose all your rigidity in the original interface. Those are a waste of time.

  9. #9
    ARB's Avatar
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    Default

    Is this the bolt on deal?


  10. #10
    newg3 is offline Plastic
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    Went to KM on four of our lathes 10 years ago. OD, ID and live tools. Cut-off is the only stick tool in the turret.
    KM or Capto will save you money.

  11. #11
    Xjenderfloip is offline Stainless
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARB View Post
    Is this the bolt on deal?

    Thats the bolt on, for internal holders its not so bad even, but for external i also prefer the direct blocks.
    Ofcourse it all depends on how far you can stick out ect, but you always loose rigidity with the loose holders.

    For example, i used a 10X D silent boring bar in a loose holder and i had vibrations, going to a direct block fixed the problem.

  12. #12
    ARB's Avatar
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    Can someone show me a picture of how to retro the "Direct" mount to a stick top plate?

    Like this one

  13. #13
    Xjenderfloip is offline Stainless
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    Hmm with that turret i would go for the bolt on, you gained back rigidity becuase you dont have bolt on blocks in wich you put in the toolholders.

    So your situation is perfect for the bolt on capto.

    Most turrets i worked with the situation was 1,2,3 -> turret->toolholder block->toolholder.
    Adding a capto bolt on would make it 1,2,3,4

    This is 1,2, adding capto bolt on makes it 3

  14. #14
    TimD is offline Cast Iron
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    I only have an older Sandvik catalog (2008) but this is what I found. Note I've never used a Capto system, although it sure looks nice.

    The ID holders look pretty straight forward pg G15 PN C4-RC2090-24043A is for a right hand C4 unit. They are listed as special application but the give all the dimensions of the bolt hole locations, I would assume for 'standard' turrets?

    For OD holders all I see are the type that clamp into your existing tool holder pocket. The holders on G13 though look like they have bolt holes for additional fasteners. The bolt holes I'm seeing may be for the holder itself but in the picture there aren't any bolts in the holes. PN C4-RC2080-59102-16A is for a 1" shank, right hand, C4.

    I don't know know if that helps but I don't see anything in my catalog that was a direct bolt on option. From the looks of it unless your turret was made for them you have to use an adapter of some sort, VDI or otherwise.

    Maybe the other posters are referring to using a VDI to stick to Capto as the no-no?

  15. #15
    gregormarwick is offline Stainless
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    I'll take some photos of my setup tomorrow. Using the bolt on block meant the difference between having to use a damped boring bar before, and being able to use a solid bar now. The quick change and repeatability are bonuses.

    They are expensive, but unless you are going to completely fill your turret with them they're reasonable for what you get IMO. Our C6 blocks were about 750 GBP each. They are machined to suit your turret.

    VDI > stick > capto would be a very poor setup, but with capto VDI blocks as standard why would anyone do that?

    Another option, if you have a nice new lathe that can justify it, is they will make you a whole new disc with integrated capto to replace your existing one, tailored to your turret. I have no idea the cost of that, but fair to say you wouldn't buy one for your 20 year old workhorse.

  16. #16
    emt2688 is offline Cast Iron
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    Not to hijack this thread, but if you are considering the KM, I have several heads and one tool block that I would be willing to part with. I obtained these in a Kennedy toolbox I bought at an auction.

    A few KM 32 series tool holders, A few KM 40 series holders, and a KM 40 tool block.

    all in either new or slightly used condition.

    I have had these for a few years, and have no use for them here.

    PM me if you have any interest, and I can e-mail pics next week.

    Pat

  17. #17
    gregormarwick is offline Stainless
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    Default

    Photos as promised.

    OD Block mounted on turret:



    Base of block showing machined mounting to suit turret:


  18. #18
    ARB's Avatar
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    Thanks for the pictures.
    I like that it does not eat up a bunch of Z.

  19. #19
    Xjenderfloip is offline Stainless
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    gregormarwick , wheres your torque key on the photo?

    That looks like a pretty fresh turret.

  20. #20
    gregormarwick is offline Stainless
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xjenderfloip View Post
    wheres your torque key on the photo?
    You mean for torquing the clamp bolt? It wasn't at hand when I took the photo, I only used the allen key to remove the tool that was in there so I could get a better photo of the block.

    Yeah the turret is still nice and shiny, the lathe is barely 6 months old.

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