Degrees of 5 axis awesome: Hermle vs Mikron... DMG?

Looking at some 5 axis machines, small to medium sized. We are going to get the biggest tool magazine possible and a pallet changer so we have all sorts of work holding always ready. Basically setting up like you see in those videos of the Apple shops.

So talking to all the high end guys they all have their machines at Apple. They started with DMG, then added some Mikrons, and now Hermle - in theory moving up as they learned more about running these types of 5 axis machines. Of course, all of these guys build pretty great machines, especially Mikron and Hermle. Mikron leans toward high speed with linear motors and really high speed spindles on some of their stuff. Hermle only builds 5 axis machines, basically the same one in different sizes and has it really well figured out. In terms of making parts I think any can do a killer job....

But who has experience they can share about the support and reliability of these machines here in the USA? Especially when adding things like the extra tool magazines and pallet changers. How responsive are these Euro companies at getting you going and fixing stuff when needed. Mikron has a ton of different machines and types, do they know them all really well, same with DMG. The sales guys (all of them) love to tell stories about the "other guys" machines sitting waiting for a repair while theirs is still running, or the part is stocked locally if it breaks.

For reference we are looking at DMG DMU50, Mikron HSM 400 U, and Hermle C22.

Any direct experience good or bad is welcome.

No help jid2 just a question I guess this is for work not home? Pretty High tech looking machines their.

Don't have experience with Hermle or Mikron and a little with DMG and other Euro builders. Good machines at the end of the day for sure. My main observation is that there always seem to be some startup bugs/drama/problems that the field service guys have to fix or deal with. This makes the startup drag on longer than planned.

IME the opposite is true with the likes of Makino, Mori and Mitsui. Put it together, it runs. And typically runs for years before needing further attention.

Isn't the DUM 50 now being built at the DMG Mori factory in Davis, CA? I would the think the fact that it's made just down the I5 (a ways) would be a decent indicator of parts availability and support.

Vancbiker said:

Don't have experience with Hermle or Mikron and a little with DMG and other Euro builders. Good machines at the end of the day for sure. My main observation is that there always seem to be some startup bugs/drama/problems that the field service guys have to fix or deal with. This makes the startup drag on longer than planned.

IME the opposite is true with the likes of Makino, Mori and Mitsui. Put it together, it runs. And typically runs for years before needing further attention.

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Agree. I would add OKK.

We have 4x Mikron machines, 1x HSM 400U, 2x HSM 600U (the 600's have pallet changers) and one that is bigger but I don't know the model number and 3x older DMU50's. The Mikrons are excellent machines with good support. The DMG.....good machines when they run, but horrible on the support side. No experience with Hermle as the cost is just way too much.

Tonytn36 said:

The Mikrons are excellent machines with good support. The DMG.....good machines when they run, but horrible on the support side.

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I'll second that sentiment. DMG applications and technical support in the US is crap. Unless you have enough money to fly someone out from Germany (aka Apple) you will wait at least 2 weeks for an answer to anything. Usually much much longer...

Hermle is going to be the best on that list but the most expensive. I think the C22 is around $380k. I think that DMU50 is almost half that price.

Problem with Mikron and Hermle is they are going to rape you on that extra magazine capacity. I think when I priced the Hermle magazine it was an extra $80k
Mikron has a really reasonably priced pallet changer but hermle will rape you again.

What is your budget? $500k?

TKassoc said:

I'll second that sentiment. DMG applications and technical support in the US is crap. Unless you have enough money to fly someone out from Germany (aka Apple) you will wait at least 2 weeks for an answer to anything. Usually much much longer...

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Any chance this has changed/is changing with the DMG/Mori merger?

dstryr said:

Hermle is going to be the best on that list but the most expensive. I think the C22 is around $380k. I think that DMU50 is almost half that price.

Problem with Mikron and Hermle is they are going to rape you on that extra magazine capacity. I think when I priced the Hermle magazine it was an extra $80k
Mikron has a really reasonably priced pallet changer but hermle will rape you again.

What is your budget? $500k?

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Half that price for the full blown DMU50? or the Ecoline version?

rlockwood said:

Any chance this has changed/is changing with the DMG/Mori merger?



Half that price for the full blown DMU50? or the Ecoline version?

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I didnt realize how long ago I got this quote but here is what it was for. About $300k so my math was off a little. The mikron or hermle is going to be in the upper 400s with the same options.


S-A3073 - DMU 50 NEW DMG DESIGN

S-B3080 - 3D-CONTROL HEIDENHAIN ITNC 530

S-C3042 - SWIVEL ROTARY TABLE, SIMULTANEOUS

S-E3059 - SPINDLE SPEED UP TO 18,000 RPM SK40

S-M3004 - TOOL CLAMPING FOR CAT40

S-D3050 - TOOL MAGAZINE 60 PO SK40 VERTICAL CHAIN

S-K3134 - TOOL LASER MEASURING BLUM

S-K3130 - DIRECT MEASURING SYSTEMS X/Y/Z

S-K3367 - INTERNAL COOLANT SUPPLY 40 BAR / 600 I

S-K3272 - SWARF CONVEYOR

S-H3022 - MANUAL CONTROL PANEL -

S-L3004 - MACHINE VERSION 60 HZ

S-INCH - INCH VERSION

SK001 - S-K2530 3D QUICK SET

SK002 - S-K3347 INFRARED MEASURING PROBE PP 60

OPTICAL

D-NT401 - DMG NETSERVICE - CLIENT

jid2,

We have a DMG DMU 50 which has been in service for 3 years now. Our experience echos that of many others who have posted here. There were some teething problems when it was first installed - nothing major, maybe a total of 3-4 days down time in first six months; otherwise its been a solid performer. There are a few things I would caution about (and may have changed since our purchase).

1) It runs on a single voltage such that we needed to purchase a separate transformer.

2) IF YOU ORDER IT, MAKE SURE IT HAS THE MIST COLLECTOR SHEETMETAL INSTALLED!! As a very tightly enclosed machine it produced quite a mist inside. When we inquired about mist collection, there were a lot of blank stares, until the dealer (Ellison) contacted Germany. They sent over the sheet metal for us to install. After looking things over we ended up removing about a third of the sheetmetal cabinetry to get it installed ( no instructions provided). Somewhat after the fact we got hold of Germany - they said "Ya, its easy to install....we've always done it before putting on the sheetmetal enclosure"

3) Get a list of lubricant suppliers that are local and approved. We ended up having to source the spindle oil from a place in Virginia...just really odd situation.

All that aside, it has been a sweet machine to run. The Heidenhain iTNC530 controller is very good. Blum laser for tool setting and Renishaw for probing make setup very easy (we're an R&D shop, so lots of setups). It is not a particularly heavy machine so that may be a consideration - we do mostly aluminum.

As mentioned above, the machine is now being built in Davis, CA; we saw some of the assembly work going on during a tour early last year. I believe the MoriDMG Tech Center at Davis has machines available for demo, so factory tour/extensive demo ought to be possible.

We have 60 tool magazine; no pallet changer. If you have other questions, please ask here or via PM.

Fred

rlockwood said:

Any chance this has changed/is changing with the DMG/Mori merger?

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Not so far.

PROBE said:

Agree. I would add OKK.

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I would not put OKK in the same league. I would put Mitsui Seiki in there and would take out the DMG Mori hybrids.

Any consideration given to the Makino D-series, or Okuma's MU series 5AX machines? (No personal experience here, but would be curious to see where they stand with other competition.)

I have always had great luck with Mikron. Mikron also has the HEM 500u/700u simultaneous 5x touque tables with a 20k 60tools TSA,TSC,External air, oil mist for right around $400k fully loaded with a pallet changer for a 500u. Machine is about 15klbs.

Hermle's pallet changer is interesting I like the Hermle table.

Jashley73 said:

Any consideration given to the Makino D-series, or Okuma's MU series 5AX machines? (No personal experience here, but would be curious to see where they stand with other competition.)

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I would put them in the same category as the Mori/DMG machines and Matsuura. Not quite as high end as the others for jid2's particular wants. Matsuura has the LX-160 machines that would be a good consideration if the travels matched the need of jid2. Maybe the Matsuura MAM machine for something a little larger. Built specifically for 5 axis and for pallets and large tool changers.

jid2,

All of the machines you are considering will need a more stable environment than an office building. They will need a real foundation and controlled environment to achieve the type of results you are looking for. Something along the lines of +/- 1 or 2 degrees in temp for the space is what some of the others are maintaining for the best results.

2outof3 said:

jid2,

All of the machines you are considering will need a more stable environment than an office building. They will need a real foundation and controlled environment to achieve the type of results you are looking for. Something along the lines of +/- 1 or 2 degrees in temp for the space is what some of the others are maintaining for the best results.

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So treat them like a WEDM basically, correct?

2outof3 said:

jid2,

All of the machines you are considering will need a more stable environment than an office building. They will need a real foundation and controlled environment to achieve the type of results you are looking for.

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And when that's not an option.. How much is gained by getting the machines with a higher degree of awesomeness?

rlockwood said:

And when that's not an option.. How much is gained by getting the machines with a higher degree of awesomeness?

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The thermal comp/ stability systems will certainly help. The devil is in the details. Are you looking for highest flexibility on one off parts or stability while doing volume metal removal.