Different machining time for same NC Code.. reasons?
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    Default Different machining time for same NC Code.. reasons?

    Hi all,

    I've carried the experimental tests (using the same NC code and set up) in two different machines (Haas TM1P & Haas VF3) and the machining time was completely different, nearly 2x slower on the TM1P.

    The basic specifications of the machines are:
    TM1P: 7.5HP and belt drive spindle
    VF3: 30HP and inline direct drive

    Would you know more reasons on why such difference in the machining time? Any insight is valuable..


    Thanks in advance

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    Tool change time, rapids

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    Quote Originally Posted by lcmRES View Post
    Would you know more reasons on why such difference in the machining time?
    Had a friend with a late model something-or-other and an elderly ExCell-O 104 with Gettys drives (DC). Put the job from the newer machine onto the ancient old-technology ExCell-O, parts went about 30% faster

    Them Gettys drives, if sized correctly, can shit-n-git. Lots of acceleration, even with slower top speed, ended up cutting cycle time.

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    TM1P (short for tooling mill) doesn't have nearly the RPMs available as the VF3. Depending on how your program is written with a slower RPM comes a slower federate. If memory serves me the rapids aren't near as fast either as Booze Daily said. Tool changes. I believe the VF stages a tool to be ready for the change and the tooling mill doesn't, after putting the tool away it turns the carrousel to load the next one. Quite a bit slower

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    Tool change time, rapids, spindle and axial acceleration and deceleration. There's other settings and parameters that can have adverse affect as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lcmRES View Post
    I've carried the experimental tests (using the same NC code and set up)
    if i may : tick-tock timer is not tests

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    Quote Originally Posted by AARONT View Post
    Tool change time, rapids, spindle and axial acceleration and deceleration. There's other settings and parameters that can have adverse affect as well.
    This is it exactly. Even with identical code, the TM series is going to be much slower than the VF series, even on a program with no toolchanges. The VF series have much higher torque servos and can Accelerate and Decelerate much faster. The same goes for the spindle. Because of the higher horsepower with nearly equal rotating mass, the VF can bring the spindle up to rpm and stop the spindle much faster.

    There is an interesting youtube video of a VF2, VF2SS and a DM2 running the same code, same feeds and speeds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G00 Proto View Post
    There is an interesting youtube video of a VF2, VF2SS and a DM2 running the same code, same feeds and speeds.
    I'd be interested to see a comparison of a late-model Haas with a 1980 104 ExCellO

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    I'd be interested to see a comparison of a late-model Haas with a 1980 104 ExCellO
    Especially when you can get rid of 3/4 of the roughing cuts
    with the Excello.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Especially when you can get rid of 3/4 of the roughing cuts
    with the Excello.....
    Since it looks like there's at least one other ExCellO fan here, gotta share ...

    Went to a show some time around 1980. The baby ExCellO was brand new, that was one of the machines I really wanted to see. Typical show of the time, the Anilam guys were waltzing around in their wizards costumes, the US Machine Tool guys had the bikini babes laid out on the tables, and over on the edge (I forget who the distributor was but it's an old name) was the ExCellO. But the thing was brand new, they didn't have a spare, Grove Valve had pre-paid and needed to run parts, so here was this little ExCellO, surrounded by flash and bling booths, with a greasy-ass guy in overalls loading cast iron valve bodies into it and running production. It was running Trim-Sol and making a mess

    Same show had a RAM 630 wailing away on steel. Sounded like someone with a B.A.R. going crazy inside the enclosure. You could put your hand on it and not even feel any vibrations.

    @ ewsley - American machine tools were good. Not all of them, but the good ones were spectacular. The Japs are kinda-sorta-maybe catching up now, decades later. If only the electronics had been reliable ...

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    Tool change time was more or less similar, even a bit faster on the slower machine. The rapids hold the same reference value on both..

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    Quote Originally Posted by conceptdevelopers View Post
    TM1P (short for tooling mill) doesn't have nearly the RPMs available as the VF3. Depending on how your program is written with a slower RPM comes a slower federate. If memory serves me the rapids aren't near as fast either as Booze Daily said. Tool changes. I believe the VF stages a tool to be ready for the change and the tooling mill doesn't, after putting the tool away it turns the carrousel to load the next one. Quite a bit slower
    The RPM set in the code was based on the TM1P max. The observed tool-to-tool average time was quite similar for both machines (surprisingly slightly faster on the TM1P).

    That's the machining power profiles of both cutting processes in which you can see the tool changes:
    picture1.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by AARONT View Post
    Tool change time, rapids, spindle and axial acceleration and deceleration. There's other settings and parameters that can have adverse affect as well.
    This these are the keywords 'spindle and axial acceleration and deceleration'.. the differences on the transient state of each machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deadlykitten View Post
    if i may : tick-tock timer is not tests
    Hi, I should've told more about the experiments before, my apologies. I'm monitoring the power consumption of the cutting process on each machine. However, my measuring frequency wasn't large enough to catch the transient states in details, but can ensure tool change isn't the issue. I've attached the power profiles I got for each machine and the power distribution for machine VF3 so you may see better about the process. Thnx, Lorena
    picture3.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails picture3.jpg  

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    Thank you. Would you know more about the mechanical time constant of those machines' servomotors?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lcmRES View Post
    I've attached the power profiles I got for each machine and the power distribution for machine VF3 so you may see better about the process
    pls share a better quality of those images, and pls share from where you got them

    i suggest WeTransfer

    just send the files to your own e-mail, and paste the link here

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    Quote Originally Posted by deadlykitten View Post
    pls share a better quality of those images, and pls share from where you got them
    Good God, tell me your not in a thread where acell / decell matters,

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    Quote Originally Posted by machtool View Post
    Good God, tell me your not in a thread where acell / decell matters,
    Unfortunately, his verbal diarrhea has infected every thread in CNC Machining.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lcmRES View Post
    I've carried the experimental tests (using the same NC code and set up) in two different machines (Haas TM1P & Haas VF3) and the machining time was completely different, nearly 2x slower on the TM1P.

    The basic specifications of the machines are:
    TM1P: 7.5HP and belt drive spindle
    VF3: 30HP and inline direct drive
    hello again as long as cncs are not identical, also machining durations will not be equal

    please consider that identical cncs may be tuned differently, so to deliver different durations on same code

    why do you bother with such differences ? whats the goal ?

    Quote Originally Posted by lcmRES View Post
    I'm monitoring the power consumption of the cutting process on each machine
    even if it seems relevant, actually you should not reffer to that diagram, but to specific code paragraphs

    for example, to compare rapids, simply run a program with many rapid movements

    to compare spindle, simply run a program that will acc and decc the spindle

    same for feed, etc ...

    but in the end, whats the goal ? you will have the time differences, and after ?

    Quote Originally Posted by lcmRES View Post
    Thank you. Would you know more about the mechanical time constant of those machines' servomotors?
    if you wanna push things, try to tune your cnc ... unfortunately, i can not help you with tuning specifics for haas

    few dare tuning servos, etc, and most are comfortable with the way the cnc works

    if it works, dont touch it ...

    i dont know what you are after : understanding the basics, or pushing the cnc ?

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    could it be different parameters for say a drillig cycle?

    I have a mycenter with yasnac control and an okuma with osp...
    when drilling with g83 the cycle times are completly different using the same program
    but if i switch the g83 to g73 in the okuma the times are right in line with eachother


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