Dorian QCTP spec: +/- 0.0001 Verifiable? Can anyone positively affirm it?

continue please...
Dorian topic previously closed

Whats there to talk about

Any fool that wants to try is too stupid to even measure let alone have a need for a part to that spec.

Dude, no, just look at the design. You really think something like that is going to repeat .0001"? Please…. Have you ever seen what shit looks like that makes other shit goes to the same .0001" spot every time? It doesn't look like a piece of crap QCTP. Gimmie a break? You think you're just going to work away droppin quick change tools into the holder and expect them to go to -/+ .0001? Laaadeee da…. just makin parts…. no problem..

I expect gang tool set ups to go the the same place every time, that's about it.

IMHO, both the manufacturer and the original OP are in La La Land. I looked at the Dorian lathe toolpost brochures and sure enough they state .0001" repeatability. So, someone at Dorian is nutty for printing such in the first place and the OP was incredibly naive for thinking such was possible in the real world.

I presume the deal with Dorian is they discovered under controlled clean room conditions the posts could repeat .0001" but they should state under which conditions they achieved that result and warn that not to expect such in typical real world shop conditions.

And we are overlooking the fact that the force to tighten the toolpost handle can also be pulling backlash and slop out of other components on a machine, by much more than .0001 More of a factor on a smaller manual lathe, but still a factor, IMHO.

Our gages do not repeat within .0001

Davis In SC said:

And we are overlooking the fact that the force to tighten the toolpost handle can also be pulling backlash and slop out of other components on a machine, by much more than .0001 More of a factor on a smaller manual lathe, but still a factor, IMHO.

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You have to hold your tongue in the right position,each and every time.

Milacron said:

IMHO, both the manufacturer and the original OP are in La La Land. I looked at the Dorian lathe toolpost brochures and sure enough they state .0001" repeatability. So, someone at Dorian is nutty for printing such in the first place and the OP was incredibly naive for thinking such was possible in the real world.

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Milacron- I do not purport to be an experienced machinist but I am also no fool. When I read a spec from a fairly large producer and it states 0.0001" repeatability I automatically assume that is in ideal conditions. I was not demanding that level of repeatability and never stated that anywhere, and I never expected it.

I did not need that level of repeatability and did not claim that in the previous thread. But I was not expecting 0.0007" at best. That is a gross mis-statement of the spec.

Further my thread was not to warn people that all Dorian's products were junk or for that matter that any of their products were junk. It was warning other people on this forum of the highly inaccurate (not a small inaccuracy) claims but most important of all - the matter was Dorian's customer service in dealing with the matter.

I posted the thread on the CNC forum as this is only a problem when using that style tool holder in a CNC environment or when you have a tool library in a manual lathe. I am annoyed at Dorian.

And insofar as being in "La La Land", I am pleased to report that after installing the MultiQuick Quick Change tool post and holders I do get 0.0001" to 0.0002" repeatability - there have been a few quirks getting there but I am now in LL Land. But that is better than the repeatability I need for now.

A number of people seem rather surprised that would believe the manufacturer's spec. Well, as someone put it, if the machinists and toolmakers are held to specs all day long, why would Dorian not be held to their spec. They are free to publish accurate specs. And with a good design and a clean environment (very important) one can fairly easily achieve a couple of tenths of accuracy.

Davis In SC said:

And we are overlooking the fact that the force to tighten the toolpost handle can also be pulling backlash and slop out of other components on a machine, by much more than .0001 More of a factor on a smaller manual lathe, but still a factor, IMHO.

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This is not an issue on my CNC Hardinge lathe. When the servo motors are running there is ZERO visible movement on a tenth indicator. This is base on the 'compound', on the cross slide and the bed. I have checked almost every single possible aspect of this ordeal. I did in fact have some other issues which took me longer to identify the problem with the tool post.

Chris Harris said:

Further my thread was not to warn people that all Dorian's products were junk or for that matter that any of their products were junk. It was warning other people on this forum of the highly inaccurate (not a small inaccuracy) claims but most important of all - the matter was Dorian's customer service in dealing with the matter.

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Your topic title would require folks to be mind readers to come to that conclusion....really poor choice of words.

Just make sure you slam it into place from the same height every time and she will repeat

I have the Dorians and they seem to repeat ok to me. Probably less than .0005". Maybe the OP got a bad set?

Sounds like you are saying, we need to throw away our Aloris and get a Dorain for better accuracy? Not going to happen!

That like prying my Colt out of my cold dead fingers! Right?

Ken

unrealistic expectations
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0.0001" repeatability is best that it will do, not bolted to a cnc machine but to a granite table in a clean room in a metrology lab. they never said exactly how you will get 0.0001" repeatability and in a lawsuit i am sure they can repeat in metrology lab their 0.0001" repeatability claim.
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real world normal tolerances with average machinist on average cnc lathe more like 0.001" (0.002" diameter) and it does not make the slightest difference you want or need 0.0001" repeatability and get it on some other machine every time supposedly. i would expect a average machinist to not even measure to 0.0001" with 0.0001" repeatability

Milacron said:

Your topic title would require folks to be mind readers to come to that conclusion....really poor choice of words.

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I disagree. It is only a subject line and I would and will avoid Dorian at all costs. The text supports the subject. You should know that if anyone. If one reads the text, which it appears, not all do, and then some that do but fail to understand the text they read, as they make many wild assumptions, I think it is fairly clear as to what the issue is ... grossly mis-quoted specs and follow-up service.

DMF_TomB said:

unrealistic expectations
.
0.0001" repeatability is best that it will do, not bolted to a cnc machine but to a granite table in a clean room in a metrology lab. they never said exactly how you will get 0.0001" repeatability and in a lawsuit i am sure they can repeat in metrology lab their 0.0001" repeatability claim.
.
real world normal tolerances with average machinist on average cnc lathe more like 0.001" (0.002" diameter) and it does not make the slightest difference you want or need 0.0001" repeatability and get it on some other machine every time supposedly. i would expect a average machinist to not even measure to 0.0001" with 0.0001" repeatability

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Well, it can't be that unrealistic if I am getting 0.0001" and 0.0002" out of the Multi-Quick/Fix tooling that replaced the Dorian.

4GSR said:

Sounds like you are saying, we need to throw away our Aloris and get a Dorain for better accuracy? Not going to happen!

That like prying my Colt out of my cold dead fingers! Right?

Ken

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This thread, and the previous had nothing to do with Aloris. So I never suggested that.

I have Dorian on my manual lathes and they fit the task. Put the tool in, clamp down, take a test cut, do your work, change tools and repeat.

Now that you bring Aloris into the mix, I have heard that they are much better at holding tolerance than Dorian. But I would not suggest them for a CNC application after what I have experienced. But to be fair to them (they also quote 0.0001" repeatability), I have not tested their product.

Keep your Colt and your Dorian.

6061Mike said:

I have the Dorians and they seem to repeat ok to me. Probably less than .0005". Maybe the OP got a bad set?

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I did consider that I may have had a bad set. But after weeks (maybe months) of discussion, Dorian admitted they could not guarantee 0.0005" They suggested the Quadra-Post but then I would be back to square-one the moment I removed and replaced a tool.

I do believe there is a way that one could design the Aloris-type tool holder and tool post to hold a tenth or two. The way it works now it is simply not possible unless one uses a torque wrench. The wedge at the back is pulling the two angled-dovetails into each other. The more pressure applied (in a rearward direction as one is closing the locking handle), the more the tool is pulled rearward. If you are VERY careful and use the same speed and action and force every time, the toolholder can repeat but that is in a very unrealistic (test) situation.

I have Aloris tool posts on all my lathes, I don't know what they claim but I usually can expect +-.0008 at the tool. It is a bit of a pita to keep everything clean as a chip will change things in a hurry. I looked at Dorian's gang tool set up but you would end up spending over 4000.00 to get set up. The OP in the other post was going on and on about Dorian, I was going to reply but did not bother. He comes off as a anal little whiner that can never be satisfied.

Chris Harris said:

I disagree. It is only a subject line and I would and will avoid Dorian at all costs. The text supports the subject. You should know that if anyone. If one reads the text, which it appears, not all do, and then some that do but fail to understand the text they read, as they make many wild assumptions, I think it is fairly clear as to what the issue is ... grossly mis-quoted specs and follow-up service.

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Dorian should be avoided at all costs


It's "only a subject line" ?? The subject line is the most important line in a topic. It's the main way that Google finds threads and it's all that many folks read. So for years a search for Dorian will lead folks to that subject line. Many, maybe even most, won't bother to read the thread and come to the conclusion every thing Dorian makes is to be avoided. And we're talking thousands of people over just a few months....the non member readership of PM is way more than members.

Also, your statement "my thread was not to warn people that all Dorian's products were junk or for that matter that any of their products were junk. It was warning other people on this forum of the highly inaccurate (not a small inaccuracy) claims but most important of all - the matter was Dorian's customer service in dealing with the matter" is completely incompatable with that subject line.

Out one side of your mouth you say to avoid Dorian products at all cost while out the other side saying you did not mean to warn people that all Dorian's products were junk. Hypocritical BS IMHO.