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    Thanks Mike we did end up ordering a milling chuck but we needed to order a collet to reduce it from .750 to .500 inch... I hope it will still hold Iím not horsing on things Iím running about 400 sfm and a .1step over and around .004/.007 feed per tooth but my depth of cut is usually no less then an inch... weíre gonna try the end mill holder with the collet. Where can you find the milling chucks without needle bearings? I believe the ones we have are the needle bearings and not the ball... whatís the benefit?

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    Safe-Lock™ pull out protection for shank tools - HAIMER

    Has anyone actually broken it down to see if there is enough financial benefit to running these?

    If you push things enough to pull out every other solution out there, and this wouldn't, how much faster could you push things and could you get more parts per tool. Or is it purely a time per part economy, or less risk of scrapped parts due to pull out as the tool wears equation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HSM_CHIEF View Post
    I actually just tried a side lock the other day and it did pull out... I believe it was my fault tho I didnít have the flat bottomed out on the set screw so it ended up pulling out about .060 until it hit the top of the flat.
    As others said, the side-locks are great in my experience, but I'm limited to 6000 RPM, so balance and vibration don't really become a major concern for me in that arrangement.

    I didn't see it mentioned, but are you having chatter issues during your high speed roughing?
    Any sharp, short high pitch "squark" entering or rounding corner? Areas where the work-piece is flapping out in the breeze with no support in the Z direction?

    A tiny bit of chatter once per lap around the tool-path can pull a few thousandths each time.
    Ten laps into a profile or pocket and that little "EECK" in a tight corner becomes 60 thou.

    I use ER-20 for the smaller stuff and TG-100 for medium stuff. If you have long enough shanks, the TG is great ,but a lot of tools don't fully engage it.
    I've had TG-100's pull out when something was hanging too far out of the vise AND the shank wasn't using the full length of the collet.
    I have never pushed the little ERs hard enough to cause it.

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    I like Pioneer and have several of their holders, but I'd look at other offerings for non-pullout holders than that one. I have one of their MX holders, in which the collet is tightened from the rear. Just like the one you pointed out, the pullstud needs to be removed each time you change cutter. Huge PITA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cwtoyota View Post
    As others said, the side-locks are great in my experience, but I'm limited to 6000 RPM, so balance and vibration don't really become a major concern for me in that arrangement.

    I didn't see it mentioned, but are you having chatter issues during your high speed roughing?
    Any sharp, short high pitch "squark" entering or rounding corner? Areas where the work-piece is flapping out in the breeze with no support in the Z direction?

    A tiny bit of chatter once per lap around the tool-path can pull a few thousandths each time.
    Ten laps into a profile or pocket and that little "EECK" in a tight corner becomes 60 thou.

    I use ER-20 for the smaller stuff and TG-100 for medium stuff. If you have long enough shanks, the TG is great ,but a lot of tools don't fully engage it.
    I've had TG-100's pull out when something was hanging too far out of the vise AND the shank wasn't using the full length of the collet.
    I have never pushed the little ERs hard enough to cause it.
    No Iím not getting any chatter... most of the work we do is pretty big and rigid and I try and make my setups at rigid as possible.

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    No problem! Most Milling Chucks have needle bearings but the Showa Milling Chucks from ERI America uses Ball Bearings which we have found to give much more clamping power on the thrust ring preventing the tool to pull out (the 3/4" Chuck has 1180 Nm of Clamping Power, this is double that of a Hydraulic Chuck and higher than other milling chucks we have tested). The one caveat to this is you need to hold onto at least 1.800" of the shank to get the full holding power. You can use collets with this milling chuck but we have found you lose 10%-20% of the holding power with a collet depending on the diameter. Also, you can't overtighten these milling chucks which is very nice but you can overloosen them and that will wreck the chuck so operators need to be careful loosening them up.

    The Milling Chuck with a 1/2" Collet you ordered will give you more holding power than a Hydraulic Chuck so you should be better off. If you still run into issues then try lowering your stepover, usually we are at .030"-.050" stepovers with a 1/2" End Mill in High Speed Machining especially with the 1" Axial DOC.

    If you still run into issues then the holder I'd recommend if the HPI CAT40 1/2" Bearingless Chuck as it would give you the most holding power at the 1/2" Diameter. The 1/2" Mill Chuck is only available in CAT40 or CAT40 Tapers so if you have a BT or HSK Spindle then I'd recommend the Showa Tool Milling Chuck above with a Collet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToolHIT View Post
    No problem! Most Milling Chucks have needle bearings but the Showa Milling Chucks from ERI America uses Ball Bearings which we have found to give much more clamping power on the thrust ring preventing the tool to pull out (the 3/4" Chuck has 1180 Nm of Clamping Power, this is double that of a Hydraulic Chuck and higher than other milling chucks we have tested). The one caveat to this is you need to hold onto at least 1.800" of the shank to get the full holding power. You can use collets with this milling chuck but we have found you lose 10%-20% of the holding power with a collet depending on the diameter. Also, you can't overtighten these milling chucks which is very nice but you can overloosen them and that will wreck the chuck so operators need to be careful loosening them up.

    The Milling Chuck with a 1/2" Collet you ordered will give you more holding power than a Hydraulic Chuck so you should be better off. If you still run into issues then try lowering your stepover, usually we are at .030"-.050" stepovers with a 1/2" End Mill in High Speed Machining especially with the 1" Axial DOC.

    If you still run into issues then the holder I'd recommend if the HPI CAT40 1/2" Bearingless Chuck as it would give you the most holding power at the 1/2" Diameter. The 1/2" Mill Chuck is only available in CAT40 or CAT40 Tapers so if you have a BT or HSK Spindle then I'd recommend the Showa Tool Milling Chuck above with a Collet.
    Sounds good! Thank you for all the advise! Iíll let you know how the milling chuck works maybe I will lighten my stepover up to around .050 and just bump up my fpt not in the production environment so time really doesnít matter just trying to get the job done

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    Quote Originally Posted by HSM_CHIEF View Post
    No Iím not getting any chatter... most of the work we do is pretty big and rigid and I try and make my setups at rigid as possible.
    .
    you using end mill you got a very very small part. end mills get flimsy at over 3 length to 1 dia ratio. so you cutting small 3" depth you need at least 1" dia end mill. i often use 2" dia end mills but usually they are hss cause of expense. carbide insert mills cheaper for heavy roughing. helical insert mill can have many multiple rows of inserts allowing side cutting as much as you want
    .
    facemill shown goes 20 to 60 ipm but when you can hear the noise from over 150 feet away i usually dont run it at 60 ipm. i have seen vibration literally loosen every hold down and pusher clamp and easily move 1 ton casting. makes a different noise when its loose in fixture. its like a air impact wrench the pounding vibration increases torque far higher than a steady non pounding action
    .
    other picture is 2" RNC mill with 10" flutes
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails roughing4infacemill.jpg   rnc_2in.jpg  

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    I ran into some tooling guys from Boeing during a meeting with the local Helical supplier out here in Portland. They spoke in absolute glowing terms of Haimer's Safe Lock, but they might be biased because Boeing partnered with Haimer on it's development.

    Helical Tools can apparently do the Safe Lock cuts on anything they make down to 3/8" tools. They were picking up a few boxes of custom 1.25x4" cutters for titanium that had the Safe Lock on them and they were badass:

    Instagram

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    I'm surprised no one's mentioned shrink fit yet. I switched from ER collets to shrink for for my endmills over 1/4" and the results have been great, dynamic milling 17-4 and Ti. Waiting on approval to get Maritool's new affordable induction machine, been using a MAPP gas torch so far.

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    Well fellas the 3/4 inch milling chuck with the .500 sleeve was a disaster I had bad chatter running a .750 depth of cut woth a .060 step over at around 400 sfm and .003 fpt.... threw it in the hydraulic holder ran the same feeds and speeds and it cut great no chatter...

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    I have never found if you have chatter with a side lock, you will definitely have chatter with milling chuck. Usually it is a function of gage length. With the hydro design, you have more deflection and vibration absorption in the body of the holder that should help tremendously. Hence its better performance in this case. You might be able to play with the spindle speed and find a less chatter prone speed. But it will likely be a narrow sweet spot as it is a stiff holder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huskermcdoogle View Post
    I have never found if you have chatter with a side lock, you will definitely have chatter with milling chuck. Usually it is a function of gage length. With the hydro design, you have more deflection and vibration absorption in the body of the holder that should help tremendously. Hence its better performance in this case. You might be able to play with the spindle speed and find a less chatter prone speed. But it will likely be a narrow sweet spot as it is a stiff holder.
    Thatís a good point I never even thought of that maybe I need to dial in my feeds and speeds a little more since itís a more rigid set up..

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    If this helps any it only chattered right when it entered the cut Iím doing a 2D adaptive strategy in a slot and if only chatters when it enters the cut then when itís engaged it doesnít chatter but when itís exiting the cut itís chattering as well

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    You have to keep in mind that a non-symetric tool holder can have quite a bit of unbalance. Roughing purposes or not, excessive centrifugal force and noise can/will contribute to your pulls so careful with this.

    E.g. those side set screw holders gives on avg 30~50gr of unbalance at 1500~2000RPM. Something that wouldn't go too well at slightly higher speed, unless you have the ability to balance them yourself then fine.

    SK collets into a balanced setup rocks, doesn't even move a micron

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    Quote Originally Posted by THCustoms View Post
    You have to keep in mind that a non-symetric tool holder can have quite a bit of unbalance. Roughing purposes or not, excessive centrifugal force and noise can/will contribute to your pulls so careful with this.

    E.g. those side set screw holders gives on avg 30~50gr of unbalance at 1500~2000RPM. Something that wouldn't go too well at slightly higher speed, unless you have the ability to balance them yourself then fine.

    SK collets into a balanced setup rocks, doesn't even move a micron
    I am a big fan of the SK collets I havenít used them for any roughing tho I only use them when making electrodes and the cutter dia is less than .050... Iíve got less then a .0001 runout using a Mari tool SK collet


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