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  1. #41
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    Max dia we have in the SK here is 16mm, but prefer a 10mm (1/4") over the larger one with faster F&S. Using a ultra sharp cutter with SK is pretty mental, cuts anything with very few resonance. Addictive I'd say!

    Started using indexable end mills for rough not very long ago. Still getting used to this to be honest, but works great also... sort of

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    Quote Originally Posted by THCustoms View Post
    Max dia we have in the SK here is 16mm, but prefer a 10mm (1/4") over the larger one with faster F&S. Using a ultra sharp cutter with SK is pretty mental, cuts anything with very few resonance. Addictive I'd say!

    Started using indexable end mills for rough not very long ago. Still getting used to this to be honest, but works great also... sort of
    Iím honestly not a huge fan of indexable cutters... maybe itís just because I havenít had much luck with them...

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    Beware the allure of fancy-shmancy expensive tool holders when it comes to a HSM roughing tool path. I tried several holders for my full-time 4140 HSM op before settling on the cheap, short gage-length, easy to use side lock end mill holder. I know you said yours pulled out but that is mind boggling to me and I would try again.

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    5* angle at the set screw location.. whistle stop mentioned above and in a set screw holder.. likely one scraped job would cost as much as a proper holder.

    We had end mill holders made special with having two set screw holes 90* apart.. one would wash out over time and the second (set screw)would still hold center.
    Often we would put two set screws in the same hold so the piggy back would be the lock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerdlinger View Post
    Beware the allure of fancy-shmancy expensive tool holders when it comes to a HSM roughing tool path. I tried several holders for my full-time 4140 HSM op before settling on the cheap, short gage-length, easy to use side lock end mill holder. I know you said yours pulled out but that is mind boggling to me and I would try again.
    Yeah like I said I believe it only pulled out Because I didnít have the set screw pulled against the top of the flat Which is totally my fault..

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  8. #46
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    In a "hard holder", pullout should not be an issue. Make sure you have a flat ground on the cutter. This can be hand ground. as you are tightening the set screw, pull the cutter as though you were trying to pull it out. the set screw should pull the endmill back in. As far as collets, TG 100 works well, as does the ER series. Proper mounting is important. The endmill and bore of the collet should be clean and oil free. Apply a light coat of oil to the bore of the collet holder and the flange nut. tighten to proper specs. Over tightening does not help, and can ruin the collet/holder. Below is a video showing that 4140 being slotted at tremendous speeds should not cause cutter pullout. Also, keep in mind that a 30 degree helix does not pull as hard as a higher angled one.


    Slotting 414 at 15 ipm - YouTube

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    QT: James u229 [Make sure you have a flat ground on the cutter.] and it a shoulder stop at the end of the flat with the cutter pulled tight to the shoulder. Hopefully a 5* angle on the flat..

    We never would chance milling with a sooth shank cutter held in a collect...might be OK milling aluminum but would still not chance it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    ...Often we would put two set screws in the same hold so the piggy back would be the lock.
    That's the way Wilson holders work. Straight shank holder with a setting ring and whistle notch, a set screw and a jam screw. Never had one move on me.

    It's worth mentioning that loading cutters or holders with whistle notches is opposite to Weldon style- you push it in against the set screw while tightening, rather than pulling it out. Failure to do that, the tool can push up and become loose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToolHIT View Post
    -A Side lock End Mill Holder will not pull out and is the most economical option but they are not ideal for tool life as the set screw will naturally induce runout
    I talked to one of the toolholder manufacturers at WESTEC 3 years ago about side lock tool holders. They said the cheaper toolholders have the tool bore ground concentrically with the taper, therefore the endmill is pushed to one side of the bore by the setscrew.

    Their toolholders had the tool bore offset inrespect to the taper, so when the setscrew was tightened the endmill was concentric to the taper. Obviously variations in shank diameter would effect concentricity but you get the point.

    To the OP's concern, I use sidelock holders with endmills with flats ground to prevent pullout, and I pull the endmill against the setscrew when tightening the setscrew.

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    Interesting thread.
    Had the first endmill pullout last week. 10mm endmill in a ER25 collet. I'm sure the nut was tight. 0,6mm WOC / 28mm DOC and HSM paths.
    Endmill went straight trough my vice. I was very happy after the accident...

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    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post
    Their toolholders had the tool bore offset in respect to the taper, so when the setscrew was tightened the endmill was concentric to the taper. Obviously variations in shank diameter would effect concentricity but you get the point.
    I believe Frank at Maritool mentioned in a previous thread that they do the same to counteract the set screw.

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    I really appreciate all the feedback thank you all! Iím going to order a few more set screw holders maybe some of better quality and mess around with feeds and speeds with the milling chuck.

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    Last time I had an end mill pull out of either a Schunk hydraulic chuck or an SK16 holder was my own damn fault. Took them back apart and wiped down the 40 taper, the inside taper, outside of collet and a brush thru the center all with IPA. Even wiped the end mill with alcohol too.

    Put it all back in nice and cleaned and tight and proceed to take a 1/2" 5 flute Imco Pow-R-Feed endmill making .050 radial depth by 1.0 axial depth and running up in the high 80 IPM range. Never moved again there.

    Somebody said something about a thin coat of oil, and that may work with a side lock holder, but it will reduce your grip with any type of collet retention.

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    I'll also toss in a big +1 vote for Rego Fix SecuRgrip.

    I managed a shop a while back where I had a lot of "resources" available, so had the ability to try most of the high-end tool holders and systems. We were extremely happy with both PowRgrip and SecuRgrip. Great products, very accurate, high quality.

    Rego-fix secuRgrip(R) demo - YouTube

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    I don't run endmills nearly as hard as some of you, but from study over time offer the following.

    1. The product line of Schunk, and I presume other vendors, is complex. In particular "milling chuck" could mean something hydraulic, something with some kind of funky bearings, or the yet different schunk sino-R which is neither of the above.

    2. It would seem that both regofix powrgrip and schunk tribos are worth at least reading about. (If you need big RPMs and much cheaper sidelocks won't do.)

    3. Do properly installed shrink-fit tools ever pull out? I've seen people complain they ring, making them iffy for roughing, but I don't recall anybody posting they pulled out.

    I've never been comfortable with sidelocks in my 12,000 rpm spindle, but that might just be a reflection of my ignorance. And I don't run hard in steels.

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    Boring the endmill bore off center is a bunch of BS. Some manufacturers claim it but actually dont even do it. This is pointless since you dont know the true diameter of the shank you are putting in the endmill holder, so how can you compensate for it? The problem is most tool holders manufacturers allow to much tolerance on the bore. I grind on center and I grind the bores tight. Take a 1/2 for example. I grind the bore tight and allow up to a maximum 20 millionths undersize. Almost all 1/2 carbide is ground to .4999-.49975. Only complaint I have is that double ended tools that are also coated sometimes dont fit in my end mill holders.

    I will put my BT30-EM.500-1.2 or CAT40-EM.500-1.2 against any other tool holder clamping technology. It does not matter how good your runout, clamping rigidity, or dampening is when your gage length is longer than it should be. Obviously there are exceptions but when it comes to milling, side loading, gage length is a huge factor.

    As far as balance of side lock tool holders. Many manufacturers dont balance or just "prebalance" end mill holders. We balance all of our end mill holders with the set screw screwed in the position that it would be in when clamping a shank. With this method our end mill tool holders maintain great balance.

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    Also when it comes to grinding a bore offcenter. It is very, very tricky to offset your grinding fixture a few tenths without running the risk of introducing angular error. Once you have any amount of angular error and reduction of TIR is quickly lost once the tool is an inch or two away from the tool holder.

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    It is very, very tricky to offset your grinding fixture a few tenths without running the risk of introducing angular error
    hello it can be made easier, but it requires costly preparations for a non-standard setup; and, in the end, why ?

    most tool holders manufacturers allow to much tolerance on the bore
    most tool shanks and tool holders are on H7/h7, and common practice is crafting so to achieve the maximum play, otherwise, if dimensions are towards 0, things may happen

    some manufacturers are considering a stable 25-50% or 33-66% of H7/h7, thus reducing considerably the maximum play

    all the best !

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Boring the endmill bore off center is a bunch of BS. Some manufacturers claim it but actually dont even do it. This is pointless since you dont know the true diameter of the shank you are putting in the endmill holder, so how can you compensate for it? The problem is most tool holders manufacturers allow to much tolerance on the bore. I grind on center and I grind the bores tight. Take a 1/2 for example. I grind the bore tight and allow up to a maximum 20 millionths undersize. Almost all 1/2 carbide is ground to .4999-.49975. Only complaint I have is that double ended tools that are also coated sometimes dont fit in my end mill holders.

    I will put my BT30-EM.500-1.2 or CAT40-EM.500-1.2 against any other tool holder clamping technology. It does not matter how good your runout, clamping rigidity, or dampening is when your gage length is longer than it should be. Obviously there are exceptions but when it comes to milling, side loading, gage length is a huge factor.

    As far as balance of side lock tool holders. Many manufacturers dont balance or just "prebalance" end mill holders. We balance all of our end mill holders with the set screw screwed in the position that it would be in when clamping a shank. With this method our end mill tool holders maintain great balance.
    100% that.

    I will choose a 2" inch long sidelock that runs out a couple tenths over a 4" long zero runout milling chuck any day.

    Especially on CAT 40 and below where Gage length of a holder is HUGE factor.

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  26. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by tores View Post
    hello it can be made easier, but it requires costly preparations for a non-standard setup; and, in the end, why ?



    most tool shanks and tool holders are on H7/h7, and common practice is crafting so to achieve the maximum play, otherwise, if dimensions are towards 0, things may happen

    some manufacturers are considering a stable 25-50% or 33-66% of H7/h7, thus reducing considerably the maximum play

    all the best !
    Now that's funny. A dead cat giving advice to an expert in tool holders.

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