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ER collets best practices

Captdave

Titanium
Joined
Sep 24, 2006
Location
Atlanta, GA
Since we have our HP coolant system up and running now time to order carbide through coolant drills and coolant through collets. The thought came to mind if I have a 27/64" shank should I be ordering a 27/64" collet? Since that would be at it max clamping size should we go up one size to get into the "mid" range of the collet?
Never had put much thought into this before but since we have a mess to buy I thought I would ask what is the best practice.:nutter:
 
You want the closest size to the size shank you have to have the best clamping. Smaller than the nominal size will not grip the full length of tool, more at the front and less back in the collet.
 
+1 what Tony said. You want to grip the max size that the collet can grip. Nothing bigger and preferably nothing smaller. Every thousands of an inch you need to compress the collet to grip a smaller size shank the less grip and higher the runout will be. If you use a 1/2 collet to grab a 1/2 shank, the radiuses ( radii) of the collet perfectly match with the radius of the shank. You end up having a nice continuous grip. If you use a 1/2 collet to grip a .485 shank, the radii do not match up, so grip is compromised.

This is one of the reasons we are one of the few companies that offer ER collets in english 64'th sizes. Try holding a 19/64 collet with a 8mm or 5/16 collet. Then compare the grip and runout to using a true 19/64 ER collet.
 
As Frank says, radial grip matters A LOT. If you have an 8 segment collet (8 slits) and you grip a .485 shank with a 1/2" collet, you get 8 LINES of contact, roughly centered on the segment of the collet. If you grip a 1/2" shank with a 1/2" collet, you get continuous grip (mostly) for the radial engagement of each segment of the collet. This line contact is probably the #1 reason folks have trouble with tools moving in ER collets. You want 360° of collet contact with the shank although that is not 100% possible.
 
+1 what Tony said. You want to grip the max size that the collet can grip. Nothing bigger and preferably nothing smaller. Every thousands of an inch you need to compress the collet to grip a smaller size shank the less grip and higher the runout will be. If you use a 1/2 collet to grab a 1/2 shank, the radiuses ( radii) of the collet perfectly match with the radius of the shank. You end up having a nice continuous grip. If you use a 1/2 collet to grip a .485 shank, the radii do not match up, so grip is compromised.

This is one of the reasons we are one of the few companies that offer ER collets in english 64'th sizes. Try holding a 19/64 collet with a 8mm or 5/16 collet. Then compare the grip and runout to using a true 19/64 ER collet.



And I noticed..Came across your site while searching for something and was like...this Company seems familiar..and here you are lol!

Anyways good webpage, pricing, and shipping was fast.
 
Who even makes a 27/64" sealed collet? That's really the shank size too? It's not 7/16 perhaps?

I don't have experience with drills other than the guhrings I pretty much stick to, but they increment the shanks every 2mm. Makes it easy only needing a few different size collets to use a HUGE range of drills.
 
Buy a metric set of coolant collets and keep buying good quality drills from Tites Ghuring and so on You only need few collets to cover big range of coolant drills.
 
Buy a metric set of coolant collets and keep buying good quality drills from Tites Ghuring and so on You only need few collets to cover big range of coolant drills.

You likely don't even need a full set.
5, 7, 8, 10, and 12 mm cover almost all my CT drills under ½".
 
Who even makes a 27/64" sealed collet? That's really the shank size too? It's not 7/16 perhaps?

I don't have experience with drills other than the guhrings I pretty much stick to, but they increment the shanks every 2mm. Makes it easy only needing a few different size collets to use a HUGE range of drills.
It's a 7/16 shank size, guess I didn't pick a good example.

Thanks to everyone for all the good advice.
 
As Frank says, radial grip matters A LOT. If you have an 8 segment collet (8 slits) and you grip a .485 shank with a 1/2" collet, you get 8 LINES of contact, roughly centered on the segment of the collet. If you grip a 1/2" shank with a 1/2" collet, you get continuous grip (mostly) for the radial engagement of each segment of the collet. This line contact is probably the #1 reason folks have trouble with tools moving in ER collets. You want 360° of collet contact with the shank although that is not 100% possible.

True as far as it goes, but in the medium and larger sizes ER may have sixteen segments, not eight, half from each end.

Either way, compression has to bend those to collapse them, so not only are there differences radially, but half bear differently from the rear toward front, the other half bear differently from the front towards the rear.

In essence, an ER is not about perfection 'directly'.

It is about "countervailing errors" that attempt to offset each other towards a more favourable compromise fit than spring collets with fewer segments can do.

For 'production' use, same size shank, run long and hard, if/as/when that shank is not already a good match to a stock size - or even when it IS - it should be well-worth purchasing a 'limited collapse' special ER collet, as are recommended for gripping the hardened shanks of taps and the like.

Or .... even switching to "TG" which claim but half the effective collapse range of an ER to begin with, then also offer 'limited collapse' premium fits.

The app cited? Probably snap that size drill before you overcome the grip of any decent ER AND A TOP-QUALITY NUT, when clean, well-fitted, and properly torqued.
 
You want the closest size to the size shank you have to have the best clamping. Smaller than the nominal size will not grip the full length of tool, more at the front and less back in the collet.

Can you explain why this is please? I have noticed that pattern left on the tool but assumed that to be from the shank fretting with larger loads at the tool end of the collet.

Thank you
 
Can you explain why this is please? I have noticed that pattern left on the tool but assumed that to be from the shank fretting with larger loads at the tool end of the collet.

Thank you

You can 'measure it' if you don't mind perhaps destroying a collet. Cheap Chicom one, or already damaged one works well-enough.

Just clamp it with nothing in it. Need not be overly tight.

Now run a DTI finger fore and aft along each segment and measure the difference the segments have taken from DN true.

That deviation is a fair picture of what they would ATTEMPT to apply as clamping pressure if there was a tool in there.

Perfectly round, nor same-same front to back, it will not be.
 
Sealed coolant collets usually don't compress as well as a standard ER collet. I like to use Rego Fix collet nuts with sealing disks. They use standard ER collets, the sealing disk seals the coolant and also prevents chips from entering the slots of the collet. They also have flushing disks that are like a funnel and direct coolant down the flutes of a standard end mill. They have standard nuts and bearing nuts that work with the sealing disks.

http://us.rego-fix.com/disks/
 
Well... in my lathe, coolant is pumped through the VDI 40 holder much as with CTS and I just use the regular hardinge collets... and the coolant is squirting wonderfully down the flutes..nice job.
But this is not of course like a coolant through drill, but I wonder if I did use coolant through, surely some coolant delivery would occur to the point as the coolant ports are on the trailing edge...
 
Since that would be at it max clamping size should we go up one size to get into the "mid" range of the collet?
Never had put much thought into this before but since we have a mess to buy I thought I would ask what is the best practice.:nutter:

hoil Captain :)

27/64 = ~10.7mm

you may use a er20, er25 or er32 size collet ; i recomand the er32 :)

regardless of the collet size, thus regarding of clamping the tool in a smaller or bigger collet, use collets with clamping domain of [ -1 .. 0 ] or [ -0.5 .. 0 ]

i say this because 10.7 is not a standard metric value, but it may be a standard inch value

if you clamp non-standard shanks than use collets with a wider clamping domain
if you clamp standard shanks than use collets with a h7 clamping domain


about using through coolant tools, thus sealing methods :
... rubber, from Kintek - Home
... sealing disk over a standard collet ( pretty comon ) :
...... advantage : you may use through-coolant-tools inside normal collets
...... advantage : less chips will enter inside the collet ; rubber seal will also block chips
...... disadvantage : means more parts, and more weight, and sealdisk are usually for collets with wider clamping domain, and this means collet deformation, and/or less contact between collet and chuck :)
... metalic sealed : less elastic behaviour inside the collet, thus same torque aplied on such a collet compared to another, will lead to a smaller grip on the tool

i use kintek precision, rubber sealed, for standard shanks
i use whatever for non-standard shanks
i try to avoid non-standard shanks, because ( compared to when clamping normal shanks ) :
... collet deformation is higher
... collet is out of the chuck a bit more
... in time you may ruin the cone surface inside the holder

so :
... standard shank - h7 clamping range collet - good holder, only for such collets
... non standard shank - wider clamping range collet - whatever holder, only such collets
 

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Since we have our HP coolant system up and running now time to order carbide through coolant drills and coolant through collets

there is a way to have "through coolant" without the "through spindle coolant" option :) of course, is not a flexible solution, but it may help when needed
 
If its a production job just buy a stub heat shrink holder. Perfect runout and sealed. No fucking with ER collets

Ya know.. I absolutely love those heat shrink holders.
And they want $10,000.00 for their 1920's technology induction heaters.
I just use my $20.00 propane torch. Heat to straw... coming blue while slow turning in lathe... pull old mill out.
Small boost from torch... put new mill in.
Interestingly, z offset with end-mill to end-mill replacement is running usually within .005"
Finishes have improved. Thinking of selling off all my screwey end mill holders.
 
If its a production job just buy a stub heat shrink holder. Perfect runout and sealed. No fucking with ER collets

maybe i like to f*** ER collets for drills, and small mills, because tool changing is fast :)

can you imagine that : the tool will finish before me ?
 








 
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