Evaluating Mill/Turn Options, Looking For Comments

I'm looking for pros and cons when it comes to mill/turn machines. I've never run one, but I've seen enough to think they might just help me make a large amount of small parts quickly. If I had to make a decision on what to buy today I'm pretty sure I would make the wrong choice, so I'm seeking advice from those with experience. What do you like, and why?

charlie gary said:

I'm looking for pros and cons when it comes to mill/turn machines. I've never run one, but I've seen enough to think they might just help me make a large amount of small parts quickly. If I had to make a decision on what to buy today I'm pretty sure I would make the wrong choice, so I'm seeking advice from those with experience. What do you like, and why?

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Material?
Size of parts?
Family Of parts?
Qty?
Budget?
What can you fit on the floor?
Brand Preference if any?
CAM software?
Tooling Budget?

These are some of the basic questions came up with on the fly

m98custom1212 said:

Material?
Size of parts?
Family Of parts?
Qty?
Budget?
What can you fit on the floor?
Brand Preference if any?
CAM software?
Tooling Budget?

These are some of the basic questions came up with on the fly

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Material could be aluminum, titanium, 17-4, 316, nitronic, Invar or other stuff.

Parts would fit inside a 2" diameter bar.

Not really able to make part Families. I'm looking at anywhere between 15-60 of each part, with maybe 100 different parts when done.

Budget is not determined, but less is better within reason.

Not sure what will fit on the floor, because I'm not 100% sure where the floor will be yet.

Brand preference- I don't think Haas has what I'm looking for, Doosan and DMG appear to have what I'm after, don't know about Okuma or others.

CAM software is currently Surfcam, both Traditional and re-branded Edgecam. That can change if necessary.

Tooling budget is the same as the machine budget. I currently use ER collets so it would be convenient to stay with that, but I am willing to do whatever is best for what I need to get done.

So are you thinking of a live tooled lathe (usually with ZX-C and a turret), a live tooled lathe with Y-axis (turret moves in Y), or a B-head (milling head that can index or simultaneous move- Okuma Multus is a famous one.) Price range across these is like 4 or 5 to one. Do you want a sub-spindle?

There are also milling machines that can do some amount of turning...

bryan_machine said:

So are you thinking of a live tooled lathe (usually with ZX-C and a turret), a live tooled lathe with Y-axis (turret moves in Y), or a B-head (milling head that can index or simultaneous move- Okuma Multus is a famous one.) Price range across these is like 4 or 5 to one. Do you want a sub-spindle?

There are also milling machines that can do some amount of turning...

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My thinking is currently wide open. Live tooled lathe with ZX-C comes to mind, but I honestly don't know enough to make an educated decision.

Some things to consider.
Live tool lathes typically don't have a whole lot of umph in the live tools, so hogging material like you do in a typical 30 hp vmc / hmc isn't going to happen, gets better when you get to a B axis machine, but there are issues there also. For the B axis machines, they are *expensive* and they are expensive to maintain. Of course, live tool holders for lathes also have relatively short lives and need rebuilt, but it's nothing compared to a wacked B axis machine. If I could do my parts in the cycle time I needed on a ZXC-Y live tool machine, I would go that route. Machine is cheaper and probably all told, cheaper to maintain.

I was kinda in the same boat a couple months back ,, end of last year I got a Doosan dnm5700 (40x20 mill) and really like it so I started looking at the Doosan lathes in a 2 axis but after pushing some numbers and looking at saving on time I went with a lynx 220 LSYC
still in the setup stage with it but it looks to be as well built as there mills .... one nice part is ellison is GREAT to deal with ,, I looked at okuma , samsung and doosan and doosan was the best bang for the buck by a long shot ..

We had a pretty good discussion on this topic last week.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ex-vs-okuma-multus-vs-doosan-puma-smx-333656/


Understand that the more complicated the machine becomes, the more fragile it becomes as well.

Personally, I think a Y-axis, live-tool lathe makes a lot of sense for the right parts. However, I'm not a huge fan of sub-spindles (on live-tool lathes, or B-axis mill-turns), except in a few specific cases.

If you have parts that have milled/drilled features on both sides of the part where the radial orientation is absolutely critical, then the sub-spindle makes sense.

But for general work, I don't think the sub-spindle makes a lot of sense, as it makes your setups much more complicated, and overall cycle times longer. And you almost always have one spindle just sitting there doing nothing... If you have a job that's going to run unattended, then the longer cycle times won't kill you much. But for general work, I think you could move more parts through the machine, by running all the parts thru the OP10 setup, then flipping the parts & setup and running them all thru the OP20...

If you have a twin-spindle, twin turret machine, then that's a completely different animal. Two spindles always in cut - that's a very strong case to try and punch holes in.

Citizen is also doing some really cool things with their single turret, twin-spindle machines, using their superimposed-turning function. They kind of blur the lines between a single turret machine, and a real twin spindle, twin turret machine. It might be the ticket for your 2" & under parts?
Miyano BNA-42 MSY - YouTube

But if you're going to be doing lots of compound-angle features, then you almost have to go with a B-axis machine. I would not consider them for *heavy* milling though - if a 2" indexable cutter - 3" face mill max - won't do it, then I wouldn't try it in one of these machines...

charlie gary said:

I'm looking for ...

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hy share drawings for the parts that you have in mind

i guess a lathe+live tools is ok, and the size of the parts should suggest the size of the chuck / lathe

maybe you wish to consider a bigger lathe, if you intend to craft bigger parts

so, based on the parts, there will be a reference machine kindly

Jashley73 said:

If you have a twin-spindle, twin turret machine, then that's a completely different animal

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nice one Jashley next time highlight with blue such stuff ...

It might be the ticket for your 2" & under parts? Miyano BNA-42 MSY - YouTube

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nice toy

Actually, for a general "I'm not sure what I'm doing I want a general solution thing..." I bought an XZC live tooled lathe WITHOUT Y axis movement.

I think that was a mistake. An XZ lathe? Sure, simpler, cheaper, etc. But if you are going to get live tooling, get Y-axis. Because? Because being able to drill holes in the side of something not on the centerline of the part. That's one thing that C+X can't emulate. Another would be pockets that need parallel sides.

Another way to think about it - buy enough lathe so that parts can come off the lathe (out of bar stock) and be finished in the VMC in 1 more op/setup.

Jashley73 said:

We had a pretty good discussion on this topic last week.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ex-vs-okuma-multus-vs-doosan-puma-smx-333656/


Understand that the more complicated the machine becomes, the more fragile it becomes as well.

Personally, I think a Y-axis, live-tool lathe makes a lot of sense for the right parts. However, I'm not a huge fan of sub-spindles (on live-tool lathes, or B-axis mill-turns), except in a few specific cases.

If you have parts that have milled/drilled features on both sides of the part where the radial orientation is absolutely critical, then the sub-spindle makes sense.

But for general work, I don't think the sub-spindle makes a lot of sense, as it makes your setups much more complicated, and overall cycle times longer. And you almost always have one spindle just sitting there doing nothing... If you have a job that's going to run unattended, then the longer cycle times won't kill you much. But for general work, I think you could move more parts through the machine, by running all the parts thru the OP10 setup, then flipping the parts & setup and running them all thru the OP20...

If you have a twin-spindle, twin turret machine, then that's a completely different animal. Two spindles always in cut - that's a very strong case to try and punch holes in.

Citizen is also doing some really cool things with their single turret, twin-spindle machines, using their superimposed-turning function. They kind of blur the lines between a single turret machine, and a real twin spindle, twin turret machine. It might be the ticket for your 2" & under parts?
Miyano BNA-42 MSY - YouTube

But if you're going to be doing lots of compound-angle features, then you almost have to go with a B-axis machine. I would not consider them for *heavy* milling though - if a 2" indexable cutter - 3" face mill max - won't do it, then I wouldn't try it in one of these machines...

Click to expand...

Maaan that Miyano video totally fried my brain (and the one that follows it is even more mind bending), and made my left eye and right eye wander independently like Chameleon. I think Only a Jashley could program that... That's wild.

Not clear about this "If you have parts that have milled/drilled features on both sides of the part where the radial orientation is absolutely critical, then the sub-spindle makes sense."...

You mean for a really long part + steady rest or two and twin spindles or transfer of part from main spindle to counter spindle?

cameraman said:

Not clear about this "If you have parts that have milled/drilled features on both sides of the part where the radial orientation is absolutely critical, then the sub-spindle makes sense."...

You mean for a really long part + steady rest or two and twin spindles or transfer of part from main spindle to counter spindle?

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he means the animal

bryan_machine said:

Because being able to drill holes in the side of something not on the centerline of the part. That's one thing that C+X can't emulate. Another would be pockets that need parallel sides

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excentric holders + tool quick change option ?

well, setup wont be as easy as on an Y lathe, but it will work

something like : i need to drill excentric on a normal lathe, so to make money to buy an Y lathe, that i will never use at its full potential

charlie gary said:

I'm looking for pros and cons when it comes to mill/turn machines. I've never run one, but I've seen enough to think they might just help me make a large amount of small parts quickly. If I had to make a decision on what to buy today I'm pretty sure I would make the wrong choice, so I'm seeking advice from those with experience. What do you like, and why?

Click to expand...

Mazak.....

Mill turns are great on the right parts, your run sizes are small, setups going to bleed you dry. A live tool lathe is not any thing like as fast as a lathe turn and separate mill cell, simply the mill turn does one process then the other, while seperate machines can be running at the same time. Yep it needs a operator, but your not going to get all that much non operator free time on thoes low runs any how depending on part complexity.

If the parts easily griped - transferable from a lathe to a mill that would always be my preferred way, unless the milling across your part family is similar enough that the same tools do a lot of your 100 diffrent bits. If its just you or if a operator is available would also need to play into the decision.

I gotta say thanks to each and every person who has responded so far. All of the responses have given some kind of positive insight into what I've got going on. After reading through them, a lathe with live tooling and Y axis capability sounds like something that will do the job. I won't need 10,000 doohickies each week, so high speed and heavy cuts won't be priorities in my search.
A school I work with is about to get a Doosan LYNX 220 LSYC, so if I end up with one like that I will have a good source of knowledge and knowledgeable operators close by.

"Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
Not clear about this 'If you have parts that have milled/drilled features on both sides of the part where the radial orientation is absolutely critical, then the sub-spindle makes sense.'...

You mean for a really long part + steady rest or two and twin spindles or transfer of part from main spindle to counter spindle?"

I think that refers to a part with features on both ends that must be concentric to each other. I may have parts like that to do, so a sub-spindle will probably be in the mix if we go the mill/turn route.

As for Deadly Kitten's drawing request, I can't post drawings that don't exist yet. I probably couldn't post them anyway if they did. I'm currently trying to anticipate what I can do to make parts I haven't seen yet and can only make educated guesses about. I figure saying many of them could fit inside a 2" round bar, and a majority of them could fit inside a 3" bar is a safe bet since they'll be satellite parts, where the smaller they are the better.

I need to maintain normal milling capacity for the parts too big to come out of the previously mentioned bar sizes, so not having second ops on the mill would be great.

Mazatrol? Hmm. If I can get the same functionality out of a different machine I will not choose to make learning how to program a Mazak part of my list of things I need to get done. If I have to I will, but I'm trying to minimize my list of new things that require a lot of time to learn.

Again, thanks to everybody who has responded, and please keep them coming. I bet I'm not the only person who will get some value out of this thread.

just be carefful

there is no problem if you dont know what parts you will craft, but try to avoid having your machine on the bank.owned.com

get something small, in good condition, and be sure that nothing happens if you will fail

also do your best not to fail this is all i can say good luck and have a profitable time with your future lathe

deadlykitten - please show me a link to these eccentric offset radial live tooled vdi-30 toolholders of which you speak. I've found B-axis angle head holders, but never something I could offset in Y. I might well buy a pair, really. So show me a link to this beast. (If it really exists it shows the wisdom of your argument, if it doesn't exist, that's a problem for your argument... .(:-))

"Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
Not clear about this 'If you have parts that have milled/drilled features on both sides of the part where the radial orientation is absolutely critical, then the sub-spindle makes sense.'...

You mean for a really long part + steady rest or two and twin spindles or transfer of part from main spindle to counter spindle?"

I think that refers to a part with features on both ends that must be concentric to each other. I may have parts like that to do, so a sub-spindle will probably be in the mix if we go the mill/turn route.


Not just concentric, but also mill/drill features that need to be positioned with relation to one another angularly. Imagine drilling 3 equally spaced holes. Then grab the part with the subspindle. Now, on the back face, you have to drill 3 more holes that are equally spaced between the first 3 (a bolt hole pattern that is offset by exactly 60 degrees). Drawings will often say that the angular positioning of features on one side is not critical with respect to features on the other side. If it does not say this you may have to make sure that, if the first three holes are at 12, 4, and 8 o'clock, then the 3 on the other side have to be at 2, 6, and 10 o'clock on the same clock face. The part might not function if the second 3 holes are not drilled with respect to the position of the first 3. So, without a subspindle, you must take great pains to locate the first three holes when you put the piece back up for the second operation (maybe a dowel pin in the jaws or something).

D.D.Machine said:

I was kinda in the same boat a couple months back ,, end of last year I got a Doosan dnm5700 (40x20 mill) and really like it so I started looking at the Doosan lathes in a 2 axis but after pushing some numbers and looking at saving on time I went with a lynx 220 LSYC
still in the setup stage with it but it looks to be as well built as there mills .... one nice part is ellison is GREAT to deal with ,, I looked at okuma , samsung and doosan and doosan was the best bang for the buck by a long shot ..

Click to expand...

care to explain further why doosan was best bang for buck? we are looking into samsung 2500M soon. we already have a sl 20.