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Experience with Haas HRC Roller Cam Rotaries?

apoc_101

Hot Rolled
Joined
May 11, 2011
Location
Canada
Looking into a good new 4th axis, typically used HA5C and HRT210s on many Haas VFs over the years... they have an HRC160 and 210 now which use a roller cam preloaded bearing drive now with zero backlash, highest speeds, great torque and braking. Anyone worked with these yet? The design is sound and appears to work well from limited videos I've been able to find with em.

hrc160-roller-cam.jpg
 
Would it really be any less tolerant of crashes than existing alternatives, though? That drive system should take much greater loads with brake disengaged than the conventional HRT worm gears. I could see that hurting something a bit if it was indexing at full speed and a setup drove into the table... but that won't happen here.
 
So how would it be zero backlash? If you visualise the roller filling the groove in the worm, then it becomes apparent that on one side, the surface of the worm is moving opposite to the direction of rotation on that side of the roller. So there needs to be some clearance, or it will create its own clearance. That being said, there should be no reason that the operational backlash would tend to increase over the lifetime of the unit, apart from the bearings in each cam roller wearing out, I guess, but even those aren't necessarily free of all clearance either.

I suppose that the maximum attainable speed should be very high with the roller bearing unit, probably with much less stirring of oil, so less heat created and so on.

Strength wise, there is quite a cross section involved across 3 or 4 teeth of a worm wheel, whereas only the cross section of the relatively small diameter pin in the axis of each cam roller takes the brunt of an impact, potentially brinelling the bearings in the rollers involved in a hit situation.
 
So how would it be zero backlash? If you visualise the roller filling the groove in the worm, then it becomes apparent that on one side, the surface of the worm is moving opposite to the direction of rotation on that side of the roller. So there needs to be some clearance, or it will create its own clearance. That being said, there should be no reason that the operational backlash would tend to increase over the lifetime of the unit, apart from the bearings in each cam roller wearing out, I guess, but even those aren't necessarily free of all clearance either.

I suppose that the maximum attainable speed should be very high with the roller bearing unit, probably with much less stirring of oil, so less heat created and so on.

Strength wise, there is quite a cross section involved across 3 or 4 teeth of a worm wheel, whereas only the cross section of the relatively small diameter pin in the axis of each cam roller takes the brunt of an impact, potentially brinelling the bearings in the rollers involved in a hit situation.


The "worm" contact is between two rollers, not either side of one roller. That's how it can be preloaded and zero backlash.

Other higher end vendors have been building rotaries this way for quite a while.
 
So how would it be zero backlash? If you visualise the roller filling the groove in the worm, then it becomes apparent that on one side, the surface of the worm is moving opposite to the direction of rotation on that side of the roller. So there needs to be some clearance, or it will create its own clearance.

I think (but can't confirm) that the worm helix is ground to purposely have a slight variation so the outer parts have a slightly greater (or lesser) pitch than the center, so that the outer flanks of the thread contact one side of the rollers, while the center of the thread contacts the other. So you always have preload, and the rollers are rotating opposite each other inner to outer.

If ground right, there should be vanishingly small rotational errors as the worm thread engages then disengages the rollers.

Edit: Not sure this works, because there should be a contact transition as the rollers keep coming around. Maybe as you get to center there's no contact, then the worm reengages the opposite side of the flank. If anyone know for sure I'd like to hear it.
 
The "worm" contact is between two rollers, not either side of one roller. That's how it can be preloaded and zero backlash.

Other higher end vendors have been building rotaries this way for quite a while.

So for that to work, then there must be unequal spacing of the roller cams? They'd have to be paired up in a close/wide arrangement.
 
So for that to work, then there must be unequal spacing of the roller cams? They'd have to be paired up in a close/wide arrangement.

I believe it's the geometry of the screw that makes it all work in terms of load on opposing sides of two or more rollers. quite the screw!

2015lt_5701501050465_4720.jpg


I suspect if you followed a single roller through the screw engagement, it would be in contact and rolling one way, then through the middle out of contact, and change rotation as it engages the opposing flank of the screw. thereby at all times there are at least two rollers in contact, in opposing fashion under preload, so there can be no backlash. More than two rollers can of course be in contact, depending on the degree of preload and the tolerances across the screw (and number of turns). looks like most of them are 3 turns or just over, which is all that would be necessary to get two rollers in contact and one in transition.

(the Sankyo one pictured above is more like 4 turns... even more contact?)
 
I have one on the VF2-SSYT. The speed is nice - on rapid moves, the rotary usually gets to position first.

Torque seems sufficient too. It will swing my 110lb trunnion table just fine at 50% rapid. I don't do that regularly though. Not in a hurry to wear out anything. Usually program inverse feed for rotary moves with that big table.

What do you want to know about it?

What kind of parts would you use it for?
 
I have one on the VF2-SSYT. The speed is nice - on rapid moves, the rotary usually gets to position first.

Torque seems sufficient too. It will swing my 110lb trunnion table just fine at 50% rapid. I don't do that regularly though. Not in a hurry to wear out anything. Usually program inverse feed for rotary moves with that big table.

What do you want to know about it?

What kind of parts would you use it for?

Hey right on!

Mostly I'm quite convinced with the design features, just curious to hear how well Haas has built the thing and if any issues have come up. HA5Cs and HRTs have their own quirks but I've done a lot of aluminum, steel and other metal and plastic parts with them over the years with lots of success. Their downsides have always been that live 4th milling was only possible with small parts, and could alarm out easily from tailstock thrust (HA5C) or positioning errors (could happen with either format)... As I've used their newer and newer units those types of issues seem to have been worked out. Have you noticed any quirks with the HRC unit?

Will be using it for steel and aluminum parts which are getting increasingly complex as we cater to our own in-house automation demands (robot and mechanical parts) in addition to a bunch of customer work which has till now been completed on manual indexing (most of our production is done on larger gantrys and sheet cutting/brakes/welding).
 
Hey right on!

Mostly I'm quite convinced with the design features, just curious to hear how well Haas has built the thing and if any issues have come up. HA5Cs and HRTs have their own quirks but I've done a lot of aluminum, steel and other metal and plastic parts with them over the years with lots of success. Their downsides have always been that live 4th milling was only possible with small parts, and could alarm out easily from tailstock thrust (HA5C) or positioning errors (could happen with either format)... As I've used their newer and newer units those types of issues seem to have been worked out. Have you noticed any quirks with the HRC unit?

Will be using it for steel and aluminum parts which are getting increasingly complex as we cater to our own in-house automation demands (robot and mechanical parts) in addition to a bunch of customer work which has till now been completed on manual indexing (most of our production is done on larger gantrys and sheet cutting/brakes/welding).

I think mine is 3 years old. It's the 210 size. We bought it used as a demo unit from our HFO.

Have done some large and small aluminum parts as well as some stainless and steel on it. No issues with it yet (knock on wood) but it is certainly not "zero-backlash". Pretty similar in that regard to our HRT210. But again, it was used so I can't speak for a new one off the shelf. I'm not sure what the HFO did with it, but it isn't a beater either. Works just fine.

6061
20160316_142656.jpg
SS304
20160303_174715.jpg
 
Good stuff... Have you done any live 4th milling with it? We won't be using a supported trunnion due to the table being occupied regularly with four vises, most likely setups include chucked work or tombstone fixturing, or potentially a dovetail gripping extension. For most rotary work I think we'll have no issues since it has a brake. I guess in terms of unlocked operation, Haas don't actually call it "backlash-free" either, they just sort of inferred something to the effect in the literature. Unlike Sankyo who clearly state they don't need a brake, and are backlash-free. Doubt they are compatible with Haas 4th axis interface tho.
 
Good stuff... Have you done any live 4th milling with it? We won't be using a supported trunnion due to the table being occupied regularly with four vises, most likely setups include chucked work or tombstone fixturing, or potentially a dovetail gripping extension. For most rotary work I think we'll have no issues since it has a brake. I guess in terms of unlocked operation, Haas don't actually call it "backlash-free" either, they just sort of inferred something to the effect in the literature. Unlike Sankyo who clearly state they don't need a brake, and are backlash-free. Doubt they are compatible with Haas 4th axis interface tho.

No 4-axis cutting with steel yet, just positioning only.

Little bit with aluminum:

Although looking back at that now, it is pretty light duty cutting lol. Those are 50% rapids.

Haven't had a good steel part to try yet.
 
Hahaha! that's too funny... I was showing my boss that exact video yesterday in regards to this unit. Based on what I saw there, I'd be initially confident going into live 4th with aluminum and mild steel. and that's the vast majority of what I would consider for that application... with strong steels or hardened I'd always use the brake and keep it 3D.
 
Hahaha! that's too funny... I was showing my boss that exact video yesterday in regards to this unit. Based on what I saw there, I'd be initially confident going into live 4th with aluminum and mild steel. and that's the vast majority of what I would consider for that application... with strong steels or hardened I'd always use the brake and keep it 3D.

On steel stuff, I try to keep it close to the centerline. I'm not really in a hurry to see if I can overcome the brake lol.

4140 steel part we do once in a while, it has some angled cuts I use a 2" facemill on. Brake on of course.
1.1" width x .06" doc
650 sfm, .0055" ipt.
2" 5-flute mitsubishi wsx445


At IMTS they had their TR200Y with a decent sized insert drill a good distance off-center. That was cringe worthy first time I watched it. Although, that one has 300 ft-lb brake on tilt.

I think you can use a brake booster on the HRC? But I've read posts on here people having problems with those... IDK.
 
Worth noting, I've been investigating Sankyo as an option and they should have Haas functionality sometime 2017 (sounds like early-mid year?).

Sankyo has some nice big-thru-bore models, and their newest model line offers the ability to use horizontally or vertically, along with the option for field-conversion to 5th (swivel) axis. They are indeed zero backlash, do not typically require a brake solution, although they can be fitted as an option.

Got the HRC160 quoted up and found out our existing 4th axis drive is not compatible... so there is little advantage to favour the Haas option beyond the fact it's available for drop-in immediately. Will wait for news from Sankyo as I would much prefer a backlash-free, live milling solution going forward.
 
A little off topic...but I remembered seeing something very similar on a Kiwa brochure. I can't quite tell how the balls are attached from this pic.

 
^ Not sure that pics right, the ball drive ones i have seen in print stuff run the balls on the worm in a ball nut style with a ball return tube jumping them one end of the screw to the other, wheel just has race ways instead of gear tooth profile teeth.

bw_cad.gif
 








 
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