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Fadal 15, no tool changer move.

Richard/SIA

Cast Iron
Joined
May 13, 2007
Location
No. Nevada
Ran a decent size job recently with no issues.
Got a short job to run but the tool changer unexpectedly closed while in TC,1.
Hmm, must have touched a button, do it again, I thought.
No tool umbrella movement from TC,1.
I do get an error message at the control.

Reset CS, tried again, no luck.
Found a 2A circuit breaker tripped, reset it.
No change.
Removed the upper cover so I could manually operate the umbrella without having my arm stuck up inside the machine.
Nothing stuck.
Found and cleaned the two position sensors, no change.
I did find out that if the umbrella is not fully home the TC,1 command will return it to the parked position so I know the servo motor is still working.

I would look this up in the manual, except, guess which pages are missing?

So I'm looking for hints to diagnose why the umbrella is not moving.
Hoping it's simple.
For now I will be running the parts on an Old Matsuura.
 
The TC is operated by 2 single phase AC gearmotors and 3 prox switches.

The gearmotors are operated by the relays (solid state or mechanical) on the relay board. Each relay is fuse protected.
 
The manuals are online and they are free..

Technical Docs | Manuals & Diagrams | FadalCNC.com

Maintenance Manual, section 16, troubleshooting chart.

The chart won't always get you to your problem, but its a good place to start, and helps you understand
what is happening a little better.

The only tool changer electrical F'up I've had is loose dirty connectors. The breaker popping will
probably lead you to your real problem. Section 18 in the maintenance manual.

Its something stupid, it almost always is.
 
Also, if you are in a bind with a pissed off tool changer.. Run offsets and tool #'s
higher than 21.. Some machines (I have 2 that will and one that will error) will prompt
you to manually change tools if the tool # is higher than 21.. If your machine is one
that will error out, just use T1 and H31, H32 etc.. and toss in an M1 at the "tool" changes.

Sucks when this happens and the tool and holder you need is on the backside of the turret
and you can't get to it. Happened to me a few months ago.
 
All fuses are good.
CB2 keeps popping, but not every time.
I've double-triple checked the Z.
The battle continues.

Well, maybe something fubard with one of the motors?

Which motor isn't doing anything, the umbrella or the shuttle?

You could always try the hotwire test and see if you can get the motors to spin with direct power application.

That'll rule out motor failure.

The umbrella should spin even with a bad hall effect sensor.

The shuttle in/out sensors should trigger the control to shuttle out when doing tc,1 for tc recovery, if the tc is at the spindle.

Hall effect sensors do go bad at some point. They have replacements which are reed switches (I fail to see how solid-state is less reliable than mechanical, but...).

The output should toggle 0v/5v on the hall sensors when triggered with a magnet.

When in doubt, follow the troubleshooting flowchart in the manual.
 
All I can find in the manual is this.

"ATC Turret Failure
Check to see if the Z axis alignment was properly set at cold start. Then check to see if anything is caught between the sheet metal guard and the turret. If not, this could be an indication that the sensor for turret rotation is faulty.
The fuses F5 and F6 should be checked to see if they are burned out. Circuit breaker 2 (if it is present) should be pressed to see if it has been tripped.
Power off the machine before checking fuses, relays, and circuit breakers".

I've looked at other chapters without finding more clues.
CB2 trips, but not every time.
The tool changer is not even slightly moving.
It is not jammed.
Z is correct.

I agree that CB2 being tripped is a clue, but the manual is letting me down.
 
Section 5 in the maintenance manual goes pretty deep into the tool changer..
I don't know if it will help or not, but it is more detailed than the
trouble shooting chart.. I'd look a little harder at it, but I'm too
damn tired and it all looks like Greek right now.

The Turret Motor (Slide Motor) is activated when the Mill Interface PCBA (1040)
pulls the line low (to Gnd), pin 16 (57), which goes though the following
connections:
1060/J7-25 (1060/J7-24)
to 1100-1/J1-25 (1100-1/J1-24)
to 1100-1/J2-5 (1100-1/J2-14)
to 1100-2/J1-5 (1100-2/J1-14)
to Solid State Relay K12 (K14) on one side of the control with the other side
connected to 5 VDC. This activates the relay, closing the contacts (output
leads) and allowing the 120VAC to flow to F6 (F8), CB2 (CB1) and to the
contacts of mechanical relay K5 (K6) and from TB1-6 (TB1-2) to the motor
windings. The other side of the motor windings is connected to TB1-8 (TB1-4)
and to the RET (AC Return). This provides the power to the motor windings.
The 120 VAC power for the start winding flows to the 3 & 4 pins of K5 (K6) to
TB1-7 (TB1-3) to the Start winding with the other side of the Start winding
connecting to TB1-5 (TB1-1) to pins 9 & 10 of K5 (K6) and then to C2 (C1).
This causes a phase shift in the Start winding current and the motor starts in
the forward direction caused by the phase shift.
When reverse direction is required both the reverse and motor signal have to be
activated. The turret (slide) motor reverse is activated when the Mill Interface
PCBA (1040) pulls the line low on pin 5 (9) which goes though the following
connections:
1060/J7-6 (1060/J7-1)
to 1100-1/J1-6 (1100-1/J1-1)
to 1100-1/J2-12 (1100-1/J2-1)
to 1100-2/J1-12 (1100-1/J1-1)
to Solid State Relay K11 (K13) on one side of the primary with the other side
connected to 5 VDC. This activates the relay, closing the contacts and allows
the 120 VAC to flow to F5 (F7), to the coil of the Mechanical Relay K5 (K6),
opening the normally closed contacts and closing the normally open contacts.
The power to the motor windings is the same as for the forward direction. The
power to the start windings now flows to pins 5 & 6 of K-5 (K6), to TB1-5 (TB1-
1), to the Start winding, returning to TB1-7 (TB1-3), to pins 11 & 12 of K5 (K6),
and to C2 (C1). This causes the phase shift to be in the other direction. The
motor runs in reverse.

And then there is more.
 
Umbrella arm is not activating.
If I manually move it out of the fully parked position the control will park it, so I know the motor still works in that direction.
If it works in one direction it 'should' work in the other.
I will have to wait until evening to pursue this further.
 
Yes, the spindle does index, and the blast of air is heard.
Almost done cleaning the sump of the Matsuura so I can put it back into use.
 
We had a problem almost the same. I had to replace the plug in connections in the wiring up on the tool changer once. They were not making a good connections.
 
After getting some phone help it appears to be an issue with the AC wires to the indexing motor.
If I disconnect the 4-pin Molex it no longer pops CB2.

Now trying to source Molex pins and crimper.
Too bad Radio Shack went bust.
Looks like I will be cutting zip-ties and replacing the wires.
If I could only locate the other ends I could probably figure out which ONE is bad.
 
I bought out the entire selection of Molex connectors the local RatShack had in stock. They are, in fact, the exact same connectors Fadal used.

That said, you can use a volt-ohm-meter to check the wires for shorts to eachother and ground. I have a hunch that you've got a short to ground through the metal inner liner of the conduit, due to chafing of a wire.

Make sure you use the old wires to pull the new wires through.

You only need to re-crimp the pins, the plastic shells are reusable.
 
I may see about replacing the conduit with something that is not metal on the inside.
Big trick of the moment is finding a source for the Molex pins and the correct crimp tool.
Web is not being very helpful but it seems Amazon may be a source.
 
I may see about replacing the conduit with something that is not metal on the inside.
Big trick of the moment is finding a source for the Molex pins and the correct crimp tool.
Web is not being very helpful but it seems Amazon may be a source.

Mouser/Allied/Newark/Digikey?
 
Resolved!

Thanks for the Molex tips.
Turned out that the problem was actually a pair of burrs at one tool position and the servo clearance a bit too tight.
Noticed the problem only repeated at one position.
Tried the servo after taking it off the tool changer and had no problem with CB2.
Tried the carousel and it moved freely, that led me to doubt an electrical issue.
Pulled the lower portion of the tool holder and looked at the pockets the servo acts on.
Found a pair of fairly heavy burrs in one pocket which I removed.
Put the servo back on, checked clearance for each pocket and set clearance to the tightest one.
Some are a bit looser than others but it is now working fine.
 








 
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